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Royal Concertgebouw... all men?


Stephen  Fine

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Zoey, I think you defended cello's non existent chip wonderfully.

While we're on the subject of inequality, I'm going to vent a serious peeve I have.

Traditionally (as in times past) cooking and hairdressing were strictly in the female arena, and still are to an extent in the workplace !

So how come, all the top celebrity chefs and celebrity hairdresser's are in the most part, men ?

Also,

quote:

Originally posted by Cedar:

Oh and the crack about only hiring the good looking women was about as prejudical a statement as any I have read.
[/b]

If you firmly believe that Cedar, how do you explain the very short shelf life of the female performer in the film industry compared to the male ?

-ziz

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Egads, now the odds are 4 to 1. Its looks like I'm in a hole here, but being a man I'm heading from the shop to get a bigger shovel, maybe one with a engine and gears and hydraulics and levers.

Gender base workplace discrimination we can discuss till the cows come home. I just have a few points to make about it vis a vis male against female.

1. Never done it.

2. Never seen it done.

3. Don't know anyone that it has been done to.

There is no defense one can launch against covert discrimination since the person detecting it can determine motives and thoughts that the person being detected never knew they had.

quote:

Originally posted by Zoey:

4) The creation of all-female (or all-black, etc.) groups IS different from the creation or maintenance of all-male (or all-white) groups. The distinction rests on historical (and even current) prevalence and degree of representation. Here's something that might interest you: The Supreme Court, in a precedent-setting case, ruled that an all-female nursing school admit men to its ranks for arguments essentially along the same lines. Since men are underrepresented in the field, and women have not been, the men DID have the same legal rights as women in similar situations and the school was forced to open its doors to them. (This is the "reverse" of VMI, but older and with much less publicity. I guess people don't care about male nurses as much as about female soldiers...)

I see this statement as the crux of the arguement. To me it really says that two wrongs make a right. Either it is right for everyone to form groups based on some physical characteristic or it is wrong for everyone to do so. It is neither fair nor ethical to have one set of rules for some groups and another set of rules for other groups. This is discrimination itself. Following the thinking advocated in the statement above merely perpetuates discrimination, only the privileged classes are switched. I nor anyone should have to pay for the sins of their father, which is what is being advocated in this statement.

Denying a right to others that you grant yourself is oppression. It doesn't matter if you previously were the oppressed party and have managed to put the show on the other foot. You may be able to raise your boat by throwing your rocks in someone elses but the right thing to do is the throw the rocks away.

If you believe in the statement above than I will alway disagree with you and will continue to tell you that you can not get to the moral high ground by stepping on other people.

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Women firefighters should be paid the same as men. They can stand and hold a hose, blasting the flames, just the same as a man.

But if I were being carried four stories down a ladder, you better believe I'd want it to be a 250 lb. man that's doing the carrying, not a 130 lb. female. Neither would I want a 130 lb. man carrying me down. But men have upper body strength. Women carry their strength in their legs.

That's why in a self-defense class, they say if you're a woman being attacked, you should always drop to the group and kick with your legs. Our strength comes from our legs and hips. (We were made that way to carry babies, by the way) Sorry, that's the way it is.

No matter how much weight a woman can lift, (and I know there are weightlifting women out there), if the average man is fit, he will be able to lift more.

Likewise, 250 lb. men should stay out of the Rockettes. It just ain't pretty!

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Cedar:

1) Even if Celloontheside does have a chip on her shoulder (and I don't believe she does), it doesn't make her experiences or anything she says less valid. So let's try to avoid ad-hominems, shall we? It's beneath the intelligent people of this Board. smile.gif

2) The fact that gender bias is slowly disappearing (a fact with which I agree) doesn't mean it's not there now. Discrimination in any form takes a long time to eradicate, and it's naïve to think that equality in paper translates to enlightened human interactions, especially since these social revolutions only started to take root some 30 years ago. And the fact that things ARE getting better all the time isn't always comforting. (Care for the future notwithstanding, knowing you're "almost there" can only go so far when it's your own life that's affected.)

3) The reason there's no outcry for men's under-representation in "female" professions is the same reason men don't enter these professions in the first place: the pay sucks. Whether they're relatively low-paid because women occupy them or women occupy them because they're low-paid is a discussion in and of itself (and in which I won't indulge), but it seems clear to me that the *real* "sting" comes when you're denied equal access to the cream that society has to offer -- whether in terms of prestige, remuneration, or whatever does it for ya.

4) The creation of all-female (or all-black, etc.) groups IS different from the creation or maintenance of all-male (or all-white) groups. The distinction rests on historical (and even current) prevalence and degree of representation. Here's something that might interest you: The Supreme Court, in a precedent-setting case, ruled that an all-female nursing school admit men to its ranks for arguments essentially along the same lines. Since men are underrepresented in the field, and women have not been, the men DID have the same legal rights as women in similar situations and the school was forced to open its doors to them. (This is the "reverse" of VMI, but older and with much less publicity. I guess people don't care about male nurses as much as about female soldiers...)

And one final point: I know that a lot of men (especially white ones) think the entire world is ganging up on them, but this isn't the case. It's just highly frustrating to bear witness to subtle (and even blatant) discriminatory practices, and then be told it's either a) going away eventually, so just be patient; :) doesn't exist outside your head; or c) "tradition," so just go create your own company. It's further aggravated by the defensive stance that most people take when you merely bring up the topic, even if gently.

There are simply too many of us (both women and men) who notice a difference in behavior based on gender (and color/economic status/etc.), so either we're all nuts and paranoid (no wise cracks, please! wink.gif)...OR maybe, just maybe, complex social structures take more than 20 years to "fix" and we're not there yet.

Respectfully,

Zoey

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quote:

Originally posted by Cedar:

I just have a few points to make about it vis a vis male against female.

1. Never done it.

2. Never seen it done.

3. Don't know anyone that it has been done to.

Amazing. I want to live in your world! I have seen plenty of examples of discrimination and know plenty of people who have experienced it (me included).

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quote:

Originally posted by Cedar:

1. Never done it.

2. Never seen it done.

3. Don't know anyone that it has been done to.

There is no defense one can launch against covert discrimination since the person detecting it can determine motives and thoughts that the person being detected never knew they had.

Thank you, Cedar, for demonstrating my earlier point about the tendency to get defensive about such matters. This isn't the first time I've heard the "I didn't do nuttin'" song. wink.gif So, first of all, relax, my good man. I don't even know you, and have therefore made no assumptions about you -- except, maybe, that you're getting too many shovels...(kidding!).

But, you do bring up a good point about motives and all that. Sometimes people do things without realizing that what they're doing is actually not right. I remember a boss telling me to go put lipstick on because I'm "such a pretty girl" and it would help if I looked the part. The men, I should note, were given no handy tips to help them look any better. This sort of request spoke volumes about what he expected from his female employees (i.e., look good), and yet, if you asked him, he didn't think his request was inappropriate. Provided I looked professional (and I did), I felt "looking pretty" was up to me. I'm guessing he thought otherwise.

The thing is, Cedar, is that I wasn't even angry at him (well, at least not once I calmed down a bit, eh?). Fact is, the guy simply had no clue. None. He was of a different generation (he was close to thrice my age, I think) and honestly believed he was just "helping me out" by giving me sage advice. I'm pretty sure it was meant in a grandfatherly way, almost, except that, well, he was my boss, not my grandfather...

My point in telling this anecdote (and I've got lots of 'em) is that the fact that you don't notice something or "don't know anyone it's been done to" (and, frankly, how do you know you don't? Maybe they just don't share it with you) isn't really significant when you consider the big picture. People lived for a long, LONG time with things being a certain way, and it's not exactly easy to change overnight. And it's very hard to even *notice* it sometimes, especially when you're not the one being directly affected.

Here's the bottom line: I give our generation a LOT of credit for adapting so quickly and readily to such massive and monumental changes in such a short period of time. It's downright miraculous, frankly. It speaks volumes about the willingness of both sexes to work towards what's right, and also about the incredible strength and success of the women's movement (K545 said the same thing, only far more beautifully, at the top of page 4 of this thread). Having said all that, there is a still a loooooong way to go. And, as I said before, it's naïve to think people are treated equally and fairly just because we say they should be.

So, Cedar, the fact that YOU don't notice it is just that: YOU don't notice it.

[Oh, and I'll get to the 2nd part of your post eventually; it's just that, amazingly enough, the people who pay my salary expect me to work or something....]

Peace,

Zoey

[This message has been edited by Zoey (edited 12-07-2001).]

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quote:

Originally posted by zizzer fingerz:

If you firmly believe that Cedar, how do you explain the very short shelf life of the female performer in the film industry compared to the male ?

Because the producers of films believe that the American public won't pay money to see films with older women in them.

The point you missed is that the poster was using prejudical language to state their egalitarian position. I merely pointed out the contradiction.

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quote:

Originally posted by bleeviola:

Amazing. I want to live in your world! I have seen plenty of examples of discrimination and know plenty of people who have experienced it (me included).

Sorry we're all full. Besides by self admission you are disqualified from entry. Too bad, it really is nice here, with that rose tint to everything.

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quote:

Originally posted by Cedar:

the poster was using prejudical language to state their egalitarian position.

I should have put "most attractive" in quotes (denoting irony or sarcasm). Consider it done.

But note that I said that the good ol' boys hire the women "they THINK" are the most attractive -- big difference, I think, from how you are reading this statement.

[This message has been edited by Celloontheside (edited 12-10-2001).]

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quote:

Originally posted by Zoey:

Thank you, Cedar, for demonstrating my earlier point about the tendency to get defensive about such matters. This isn't the first time I've heard the "I didn't do nuttin'" song.
wink.gif
So, first of all, relax, my good man. I don't even know you, and have therefore made no assumptions about you -- except, maybe, that you're getting too many shovels...(kidding!).

I thought you might like that. smile.gif

I don't think six shovels is too many.

quote:

But, you do bring up a good point about motives and all that. Sometimes people do things without realizing that what they're doing is actually not right. I remember a boss telling me to go put lipstick on because I'm "such a pretty girl" and it would help if I looked the part. The men, I should note, were given no handy tips to help them look any better. This sort of request spoke volumes about what he expected from his female employees (i.e., look good), and yet, if you asked him, he didn't think his request was inappropriate. Provided I looked professional (and I did), I felt "looking pretty" was up to me. I'm guessing he thought otherwise.

The thing is, Cedar, is that I wasn't even angry at him (well, at least not once I calmed down a bit, eh?). Fact is, the guy simply had no clue. None. He was of a different generation (he was close to thrice my age, I think) and honestly believed he was just "helping me out" by giving me sage advice. I'm pretty sure it was meant in a grandfatherly way, almost, except that, well, he was my boss, not my grandfather...

My point in telling this anecdote (and I've got lots of 'em) is that the fact that you don't notice something or "don't know anyone it's been done to" (and, frankly, how do you know you don't? Maybe they just don't share it with you) isn't really significant when you consider the big picture. People lived for a long, LONG time with things being a certain way, and it's not exactly easy to change overnight. And it's very hard to even *notice* it sometimes, especially when you're not the one being directly affected.

Here's the bottom line: I give our generation a LOT of credit for adapting so quickly and readily to such massive and monumental changes in such a short period of time. It's downright miraculous, frankly. It speaks volumes about the willingness of both sexes to work towards what's right, and also about the incredible strength and success of the women's movement (K545 said the same thing, only far more beautifully, at the top of page 4 of this thread). Having said all that, there is a still a loooooong way to go. And, as I said before, it's naïve to think people are treated equally and fairly just because we say they should be.

So, Cedar, the fact that YOU don't notice it is just that: YOU don't notice it.

[Oh, and I'll get to the 2nd part of your post eventually; it's just that, amazingly enough, the people who pay my salary expect me to work or something....]

Peace,

Zoey

[This message has been edited by Zoey (edited 12-07-2001).]

Perception is a funny thing. I can just as easily insinuate that you are seeing what is not there as you can insinuate that I don't see what is there. If you believe that something is there it is quite normal for you to ignore contradicting facts and make what you do see fit the reality that you believe in. Just in case you doubt, I point out the ease at which a witch hunt can develop, with the 1000 people in jail and mass questionings of vaguely middle eastern men as a case in point. I find that the parable of the mote in the eye quite helpful when I start accusing people of objectionable behavior.

Since it is now story time can I tell the one about the woman who vamped her way to getting her money-losing project funded or how about the time when the lady cried at the project meeting until we agreed to do it her way or then there was the time a female co-worker handed me a flashlight and asked me to go into the basement to find her box of files or. Well you get the picture here, that women just as easily fall back on gender stereotypes as men, and make decisions based on the stereotype, which then leads to discrimination.

I'm looking forward to your second response, because if that is the way it is to be then we have a really long way to go.

Cheers

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I was tempted to go ahead and delete the other comment because it didn't properly reflect what I meant, but, since you already reproduced it, I'll deal and try to be more coherent instead.

After that, I think I'll stop. These are the sort of conversations I had back in college, and I'm at the point in life where I accept that some people see it and some people just don't. And life is still good regardless.

So, with that in place...

1) Perception IS a funny thing, but, unless you take the stance that absolutely everything is relative (and, if so, there's no point in ever discussing *anything*), you're going to have to rely on some sort of reference point. The only thing I was trying to say in my posts is that you're choosing to ignore the experiences felt by a lot of women (never mind about ignoring other sources of information), thereby giving the impression that they're either not credible or not important. I'll repeat what I already said: there are simply too many people, including men, who notice a difference. And we're not all making it up. If you don't notice it, look harder (or talk candidly to more women). Or don't. Your choice.

2) The fact that some women also capitalize on stereotypes is absolutely and categorically irrelevant. (In logic, we call this the "tu quoque" fallacy.) It may interest you to know that some of the biggest objections to women getting the vote came from women themselves. So what? There will always be women who voice what you are saying, and, in turn, men who side with what I am. So it goes.

3) I've decided not to delve into why creating an all-female group is different because, aside from it taking too long, I really don't think you'll be in tune with what I'm getting at. For the record: I'm not against all-male groups in general; just against excluding women from historically and socially significant ones, like the VPO, already in existence. And I stand by what I said: historical and current conditions make these groups' situations vastly different. Totally cool if you don't see that, though.

Finally: No one is asking anyone to pay for the "sins of their father," as you put it. But, to continue your own metaphor, don't ignore the fact that those sins are still very much alive (as are most of those "fathers," for that matter!) or that the actions of previous generations have a bearing on this one. They most certainly do. It's not like you pass a law, and -- viola! -- everything is just as it should be. Women couldn't even open their own bank accounts 25 years ago (they needed a husband's signature), and yet, some people are shocked when you even *hint* that there's residual behavior/practices, even if subtle, of the recent past. You can't go from that sort of atmosphere to total enlightenment in a single generation (and it never ceases to amaze me when people think it's a done deal). Except where you live, apparently. In which case, I'd like to line up for an invite right alongsdie bleeviola. Invite us for coffee sometime, yes? smile.gif

And now, back to music. Ahhh... (Poor Lymond! Probably couldn't have guessed at all this.)

Respectfully (still),

Zoey

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I too am ready to pontificate on other topics. I was holding out the hope that this thread could top the Internet Violin in number of posts. smile.gif A thread definitely deserves to be retired when Latin logic terms start popping up.

I think we deserve an award for the longest discussion on a sensitive topic without the firefighters having to be called in.

Yall are welcome any time to come on up here to the wet coast, where we have enlightened discussions drinking coffe in lieu of actually going outside and doing something useful.

Peace,

David

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I was living in Amsterdam for a while when I was working at a Dutch company, and while there I took some Dutch Language courses. There was this woman in my class who had these really graceful hands with long fingers, so I said to her "you have very nice hands for playing the violin, ever considered taking it up?". She looked at me and replied "Uh, actually, I'm a violinist in the Concertgebouw Orchestra".

D'oh!!!

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