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Royal Concertgebouw... all men?


Stephen  Fine

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quote:

Originally posted by crystal:

Like I said, this conversation has been quite enjoyable. Really. But this is an area that would never end. So, with that, I bow out of this discussion!!!
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What women 'are' and what men 'are' is all based on the education/up-bringing they have had, but in my opinion not based on pre-defined ideas that men or women are better in pre-determined areas. It really depends on both your social surrounding and the way you were brought up...
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quote:

Originally posted by ondinaperret:

Isn't this one of the points of this thread, bowing out? If conversations were pulled to their end instead of cut, if people were more willing to exchange ideas and not only 'use tradition' as an excuse, then maybe we would be surprised in many areas (not only cultural

Bowing out is realizing that this is a really big issue that goes off in many different directions. It's not as if we continued here, that LWL would see things my way in the end, of visa versa. Plus, I'd rather move onto other things.

You know the old saying, never discuss religion or politics. Well, I like discussing it, but when you have people that each stand firm in their beliefs, you have to agree to disagree and go on.

I will say that this has been on of the more interesting conversations that I've see on here in a long time, IMHO.

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I`m sure that a lot of women can be great soldiers, but to be quite honest, I don`t think that the skill to shoot a lot of people should be considered as a noble virtue( ask it to most of war veterans). I mean, there are plenty of "traditionally male things" that women could benefit much more from( like study engineering, fixing cars, ruling countries, etc.), and they probably can do it all.

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quote:

Originally posted by iupviolin:

Can you name ONE female concertmaster (concertmistress) of any major american symphony orchestra besides Cecylia Arzewski (Atlanta)?

Emmanuelle Boisvert is the (very fine) concertmaster of the Detroit Symphony Orchestra. She was the first woman to win the concertmaster post in a major American orchestra, which she did in 1988, at age 25.

As a side note, if you have the Shar videos of Galamian teaching in his last year at Meadowmount, she's the student doing the Bach Chaconne in vol. 2.

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quote:

Originally posted by Lymond:

I was recently told that the Royal Concertgebouw was all men. I checked their webpage and found that this wasn't true (at least anymore). Was this every true? When did they start allowing women into the orchestra?

Just before this interesting thread closes, please click on to website

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quote:

Originally posted by crystal:

Like I said, this conversation has been quite enjoyable. Really. But this is an area that would never end. So, with that, I bow out of this discussion!!!
laugh.gif

Just before this interesting website closes, please click on to the following:

http://www.buzzarte.org/vpowatch/

to read some of the explanations for the few women in the Vienna Philharmonic. Like their rationale or not, it's an interesting thing to read.

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I hadn’t read this thread before but it’s really very interesting. Of course the reason the orchestras are almost exclusively male is the same old boys club that goes on everywhere else. I’m a very old boy so I’ve lived through a lot of the feminist revolution. You could go on about composers as well.

There is a difference just the same. I think there are some occupations that do or do not appeal to women. I suspect women are not particularly attracted to life as an orchestra player. There is a long history of prominent literary women. I don’t think it is an accident that some of the most outstanding violin teachers are women.

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Actually, oldgeezer, there are plenty of women in top US orchestras, which makes the footdragging of some of the European orchestras even less defensible by comparison. Next time the NY Philharmonic appears on Live from Lincoln Center, try counting 'em. In the strings they include a principal (the terrific violist Cynthia Phelps) and an assistant principal (equally terrific assistant concertmaster Sheryl Staples). My hometown band here in Cleveland, which ain't half bad wink.gif , also has quite a few women.

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Take a look at the link kindly provided by Heimer. Remarkable! Not only do they not have any women, but they also don't have any Czechs, Poles, etc., since they "...don't need such people."!!!!! You have to be Austrian. In other words, racial purity is what is required. Does this ring any bells?

The Vienna Philharmonic certainly does fit very nicely into Austrian society, which thought the rest of the world should butt out about kindly old Herr Waldheim's SS past, and which more recently nearly elected an avowed Aryan supremacist as Chancellor.

Dirndls, Sachertorte, Strauss waltzes on New Year's Day and rein blut. What a place.

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quote:

Originally posted by K545:

Take a look at the link kindly provided by Heimer. Remarkable! Not only do they not have any women, but they also don't have any Czechs, Poles, etc., since they "...don't need such people."!!!!! You have to be Austrian. In other words, racial purity is what is required. Does this ring any bells?

The Vienna Philharmonic certainly does fit very nicely into Austrian society, which thought the rest of the world should butt out about kindly old Herr Waldheim's SS past, and which more recently nearly elected an avowed Aryan supremacist as Chancellor.

Dirndls, Sachertorte, Strauss waltzes on New Year's Day and rein blut. What a place.

I think Vienna(Wien) was, before the world wars, probably one of the 2 or 3 most interesting places of the world. Think about Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn, Schubert... later, Brahms worked there, and if I`m not mistaken, Mahler; the "new school"( Schoenberg, Webern, Berg). And the philosophers/thinkers: Freud, Wittgenstein, Popper, etc( notice that these were all jews). I`m sure much more could be said about the rich past of that place.

I would not define how austrian society works, but at least in what concerns their political preferences( and the rules of the Philarmonic), they should be much, much better.

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In the years before Bernstein fell in love with the Vienna Phil. he was wont to describe it as an "all-Nazi orchestra". We should be very suspicious of "artistic" justifications for ethnic and gender homogeneity- haven't we heard this stuff somewhere before?

The Cleveland Orchestra, like all American orchestras, has players whose ancestors came from all over the planet, yet in homogeneity of sound and precision of ensemble it is easily the equal of Vienna.

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quote:

Originally posted by Lymond:

I was recently told that the Royal Concertgebouw was all men. I checked their webpage and found that this wasn't true (at least anymore). Was this every true? When did they start allowing women into the orchestra?

Thre is another interesting website concerning the Vienna Phlharmonic and its justifications for its policies that gives actual interviews with three of the orchestral musicians. Again, worth a read

from the perspective of our continuing exploration of the viewpoints of others. Please click on

http://www.parnasse.com/vpo.shtml

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The all-male group is undoubtedly nothing more than tradition. Originally, men performed; women, rarely. What puzzles me is women work hard at breaking into men's groups; but you never see a man working very hard to get into a woman's group. In general, I think men have more fun than women.

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quote:

Originally posted by Celloontheside:

In general, I think men get paid more than women.

On average people have less than two legs. All this shows is that making sweeping generalizations is an ineffective debating tool.

The real question is do women doing the same job, with the same experience, same number of years with the same corporation and same training get paid less than a man? My own experience and direct knowledge says no but there are others who will answer yes.

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Fortunately, it is a myth that women are not paid as well as men. According to a recent report I read, when factors such as the ones Cedar mentioned are taken into consideration, women make between $.98 and $1.01 for every $1.00 men make, depending on the profession.

It's a pet peeve of mine when people make that assumption, especially when they cite the famous $.75 per $1.00 statistic as "proof".

check http://www.iwf.org/issues for more information.

Jesse

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quote:

Originally posted by Cedar:

The real question is do women doing the same job, with the same experience, same number of years with the same corporation and same training get paid less than a man?

The answer to that may be "no," BUT is it not the case that many women do NOT have the opportunity to do "the same job," gain "the same experience," work the "same number of years with the same corporation" and get the "same training"? To bring this discussion back to music: if the same old boys are doing the hiring, a lot of times they will just not have a good feeling about the woman auditioning and so will hire the man, once everyone comes out from behind the screen and they can see who is playing. They justify it as being their subjective judgment about "quality" or "personality," not as prejudice. (OR, if they do hire a woman will hire the one they think is most attractive.)

Bottom line is that many women who are at least equally talented players as their male counterparts do not get the same opportunities because of discrimination, which is still discrimination even if it's not overt.

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quote:

Originally posted by Celloontheside:

The answer to that may be "no," BUT is it not the case that many women do NOT have the opportunity to do "the same job," gain "the same experience," work the "same number of years with the same corporation" and get the "same training"? To bring this discussion back to music: if the same old boys are doing the hiring, a lot of times they will just not have a good feeling about the woman auditioning and so will hire the man, once everyone comes out from behind the screen and they can see who is playing. They justify it as being their subjective judgment about "quality" or "personality," not as prejudice. (OR, if they do hire a woman will hire the one they think is most attractive.)

Bottom line is that many women who are at least equally talented players as their male counterparts do not get the same opportunities because of discrimination, which is still discrimination even if it's not overt.

Apparently that chip on your shoulder is large and firmly attached. I knew the answer to the question before I even asked it. There were things that were true in the past but are rapidly fading away. I'd guess that in such professions as law and medicine that gender bias is almost gone, based on the number of male vs females I see. Engineering is still probably highly skewed and as lwl pointed out the computer/high tech world is quite egalatarian about gender.

What I find interesting is that there is not the same level of hue and cry because men are under represented in such traditional female professions of school teacher and nursing. Have you ever thought about why a women wearing a suit to work is thought to be good thing, while a man wearing a dress to work is perceived to have some substantial problems. Or why if I announced that I was forming a all female orchestrat I would not have anywhere near the level of vilification that has been leveled against the Concertgebouw.

At some point we are all discriminatory, we choose what we prefer. At what point do you achieve the power to say what I should prefer?

Oh and the crack about only hiring the good looking women was about as prejudical a statement as any I have read.

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My experience in the workplace is that gender discrimination occurs quietly and often unthinkingly.

I worked for a high-tech company where the CEO once expressed concern to the employee base that a survey had noted a very high level of employee concern at the lack of women in middle and upper management. The CEO said that he felt that he always promoted based on merit, and not on gender.

And yet when the time came to choose a new division VP, there were two candidates, one male and one female. The woman was the superior performer, better qualified, more experienced, and better liked by her peers and staff.

But the decision was made "informally", on a non-business fishing trip between the senior management who were friends with each other -- where only men were invited. The male candidate was invited; the female one was not.

And they promoted the man.

I have seen men who did not want to hire attractive female underlings, because they either felt themselves to be subject to temptation or because they feared what their wives would say if they knew they had a particular attractive young woman working for them. I have seen men who worked for me turn in interview assessments of female candidates that began with, "She has a really nice @ss."

Reverse discrimination no doubt occurs as well, these days, but my experience is that men are vastly more prone to it. Also, because at the moment there are far fewer women at the top echelons of corporations, the informal "good old boy" networks don't help them along in their careers. That may change with time, but today, it's definitely an issue.

[This message has been edited by lwl (edited 12-05-2001).]

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