When do you feel something is ready to be performed?

[lwl]

When do you feel that something that you're working on is ready to be performed?

In what way does this change, depending on the venue? (i.e., playing in your teacher's recital, playing in front of a non-paying audience, playing in front of a paying audience, playing in a competition, etc.)

How has your opinion of what's "good enough" changed as you've evolved as a player?

Then reflect this back: When do you consider *another player* ready to perform a particular work, in a given venue (i.e., the circumstances you can listen with enjoyment and without feeling embarassment for the player)? How does this change depending on the player's level of development?

[lwl]

Answering my own question...

As an advanced but amateur player, my attitudes towards performance are somewhat mixed.

In order to play for an audience with a "clear conscience", I feel like I have to be nearly 100% technically solid -- that the intonation is solid, that the clarity is excellent, passagework is even and clean, etc. -- i.e., overall, it doesn't sound either sloppy or uncontrolled.

Obviously, I also care about musical communication -- but I view the development of an interpretation as an ongoing process, as well as something often better done in front of an audience (for whatever reason, playing "live" tends to spawn more ideas). So as long as the broad underpinnings are there, I can play in front of a casual and largely uncritical audience.

I can listen to and enjoy other people's performances regardless of how badly they're executed, usually -- though I tend to find consistently poor intonation very jarring (perfect pitch, sensitive, I guess). However, if a player goes through a work at a level that isn't commensurate with their theoretical skill level (or the difficulty of the piece), I feel embarassed for them -- either because I'm plugging into the sympathy vibe of "Dear God, I'm sorry, you must have worked hard on that and you're screwing it up in public", or into the horror vibe of, "Don't you realize what you sound like?"

I find this especially true with virtuosic pieces, which I like to have thrown off with flash and dash and effortless virtuosity -- impressive all the more because they are in tune, clean, clear, and sound and look like they're easy for the player.

[ondinaperret]

quote:

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Originally posted by lwl:

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When do you feel that something that you're working on is ready to be performed?

I hope you don't mind my answering these questions in the general term of performing (not necessarily the violin as I'm still very 'young' in this art - but as a professional dancer)

In a live performance, there is always a factor called 'chance' and I don't mean chance in terms of luck, but rather of the 'unexpected'. Things that happen which are beyond our control, so for me it is very important that the piece I'm working on is technically 'automatic', that all the possible problems I might encounter have been technically solved. If one is technically solid, then one has room for expressiveness and also for dealing with the unexpected. For this same reason, I wouldn't perform a piece beyond my abilities at that given moment

In what way does this change, depending on the venue? (i.e., playing in your teacher's recital, playing in front of a non-paying audience, playing in front of a paying audience, playing in a competition, etc.)

It shouldn't change, an audience is an audience and I don't believe in 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc. class audiences, anyone who comes to see/hear you should have the best of you and be able to share your art with you.

How has your opinion of what's "good enough" changed as you've evolved as a player?

I have always been very demanding and critical with myself, and the more I evolve the more so I am.

Then reflect this back: When do you consider *another player* ready to perform a particular work, in a given venue (i.e., the circumstances you can listen with enjoyment and without feeling embarassment for the player)? How does this change depending on the player's level of development?

Difficult question. I think it important that neither the player nor the audience should suffer. Performing and going to a performance should be something enjoyable! I don't necessarily have the right words for knowing when another player is ready, but I can quite quickly tell when he/she isn't ready!

[Mu0n]

I'm going to dodge this thread. I'm too busy practicing and playing... and composing.

[This message has been edited by Mu0n (edited 11-09-2001).]

[Primrose84]

the week after i perform it...j/k, hehe

i agree completely with lwl...rock on!

[LongHair]

Gee, lwl- your writing is great.

What is the REAL purpose for yet another topic like this? Give it up.

[This message has been edited by LongHair (edited 11-10-2001).]

[iupviolin]

I think this is a very useful and interesting topic, if people will just dig deep into their minds. I mean really, when are you truly happy with your playing? Does every note have to be perfectly in tune? What feelings do you get when you're finally ready with a piece? (I know its varies from piece to piece).

I personally, am never satisfied with my playing (which is why I post so few sound clips). I'm the same way with others playing as well. I'm ruthless when it comes to fellow violinists (ask my friend who lived with my in Zagreb). He's a better violinist than me, but there's still a lot that can be said. He's better on the violin, but he's not a better violinist, if you understand what I mean. He's also a great guy...but anyway...

He's the same way, he's never happy with his playing until its over. I guess if you have fun while you're playing its worth it.

[roman]

I feel ready to play a piece when I am able to close my eyes, and feel in my mind EXACTLY what my fingers need to do. When I can get through the entire piece in my mind like that, then I know that my Motor Memory is intact.

Then I close my eyes again and look at the page (some people are unable to do this I've been told and some people are able to do this after looking at it once!!!). If I can get through the piece and see the notes, the page, the warning flags I put up in my mind, then I go on to playing through the piece by memory.

If I am able to play through the piece by memory, then I go through it and pick up at spots that I call "memory hooks". These are places that have significance to me and I place a "hook" there on which to hang my memory. They might be places that are very similar but one or two notes are different or the rhythm is different; those differences would be the hooks.

Then I like to record myself playing and listen for the little details that show up better on disc.

And of course, the entire time, I focus on musical ideas I want to bring out.

Then I am ready to perform.

Having said that, I've never been entirely ready. But that is what I strive for.

roman

p.s. my professor likes to tell me that should he come to my house at 3 a.m., wake me up and ask me to play something, it should be flawless.

[chronos]

I feel I'm ready to perform a given piece once I know it well enough to let my emotions carry the energy, phrasing and dynamics of the piece. It's an ideal I seldom live up to. In fact, it's something I've accomplished only once in my life and which took a heck of a lot of practice. It's the only time I've ever received the kind of applause that one might call an ovation. Practicing is something I'm not in the habit of doing.

If I had one piece of advice to give on the subject of readiness it would be this: Images and emotions play an important part in our appreciation and interpretation of music. Know your notes and rhythms by heart and practice relentlessly until the deepest feelings that music inspires in you come through uninhibited.

Boy that sounds corny.

[This message has been edited by chronos (edited 11-10-2001).]

[HuangKaiVun]

quote:

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Originally posted by lwl:

"Dear God, I'm sorry, you must have worked hard on that and you're screwing it up in public", or into the horror vibe of, "Don't you realize what you sound like?"

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.

Newbies, don't play for lwl. This is what she's thinking when you play.

[SteveLaBonne]

quote:

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Originally posted by LongHair:

Gee, lwl- your writing is great.

What is the REAL purpose for yet another topic like this? Give it up.

[This message has been edited by LongHair (edited 11-10-2001).]

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Son, you have a lot of growing up to do. I think it's a very interesting topic and I look forward to reading more responses. _You_ needn't read them if you prefer not to.

As a not-terribly-advanced amateur I'm afraid i'm virtually never convinced that anything I'm working on is ready to perform.

[This message has been edited by SteveLaBonne (edited 11-10-2001).]

[SteveLaBonne]

quote:

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Originally posted by lwl:

I find this especially true with virtuosic pieces, which I like to have thrown off with flash and dash and effortless virtuosity -- impressive all the more because they are in tune, clean, clear, and sound and look like they're easy for the player.

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I share this taste, which is why Milstein, the ultimate in seemingly-effortless playing, is one of my greatest violinistic heroes. And at my own limited technical level, I don't like to play anything within earshot of a musician, let alone in public, until I feel I've polished it to the full extent of my ability.

I admire the courage of people like HKV who are willing to put it up for grabs with pieces that are still at a somewhat rough-and-ready stage. And I note his admiration for Ricci, nobody's idea of an "effortless" player. These are entirely legitimate temperamental preferences, but not everyone shares them.

[SteveLaBonne]

quote:

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Originally posted by HuangKaiVun:

Oh, he understands THAT . . . and lwl's true motives for this post as well.

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But do _you_ understand that most readers of this board don't give a rat's patootie about lwl's, your, LongHair's, or anyone else's "motives" for posting? Let's stick to musical analysis rather than psychoanalysis, please.

[staylor]

It's ready when you start crying into the music (as you play).

.

(When is that? I don't know)

[This message has been edited by staylor (edited 11-10-2001).]

[HuangKaiVun]

Hey, don't be so offended Steve_Labonne!

I do understand exactly - as does Longhair.

[SteveLaBonne]

quote:

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Originally posted by HuangKaiVun:

Hey, don't be so offended Steve_Labonne!

I do understand exactly - as does Longhair.

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I'm not offended- just thought I'd provide a little nudge to help keep things on track. In fact I've been so stimulated by this whole discussion that I'm going to send lwl a short clip for the sound library.

[Mu0n]

Lydia decided not to post my clip for some reason (for now, I'll assume she just forgot about it, and that's it not caused by overwhelming embarassment for me). That was recorded in July anyway.

I'll record about 30-60 seconds of a new concerto I'm working on (since about Friday), somewhere near the end of the Sitt #3 student concertino. Hopefully tomorrow.

You guys will be able to hack me to death at will when it's posted. I'll just sit by (for a brief moment), eat some popcorn and watch your verbal fireworks aimed at my beginner self.

[rainyann]

Mu0n, I have heard you play and you play well. You have to consider that you have been playing much less time than others here on the board. I am sure that we all will be pleasantly surprised. I am looking forward to hearing your's and everyone else's clip.

[Mu0n]

Thank you Rainyann. Still, it is impossible to predict the "evaluation grid" of some people (especially on this board). If your progress on the violin has not followed a path that falls into their own model of an ideal violin-learning path, you will provoke sparks and a fall-in-line reprimand will be issued. Need proof? HKV is the prime example in these parts.

I'm potentially at risk since I can't easily use vibrato much, if at all, even though I INDULGED myself in the Bach Double earlier this year (a Suzuki-zealot's example of an act of violin terrorism - to play the Bach double BEFORE vibrato. Egads!)

I don't care, let the flak fly.

[This message has been edited by Mu0n (edited 11-10-2001).]

[LongHair]

Lookie here Steve, of course the topic is interesting. Maybe you're not aware of what I'm talking about and I really don't want to elaborate. I imagine that lwl is, however- if I'm wrong about this I apologize.

FYI- right now I'm working on restoring a 160 year old building that's been neglected for a long time and am going to turn it into a violin school and a classical music coffee house. I've been working very hard for a long time as a mechanical engineer in America and an English and music teacher in Korea living in conditions and situations that most of you upper middle and upper class folks wouldn't touch with a very long pole to save up enough money to make something like this happen. I do it all- carpentry, plumbing, wiring, roofing, etc. and still practice three to four hours a day to keep up my chops to keep the few students that I have right now, and hopefully get some more before I open the place up.

Hardly a project for a child now, is it?

[SteveLaBonne]

I'm very happy for you, LongHair, but all that experience should have given you the sense to realize that it's not your business to dictate to lwl or anyone else what topics they should or shouldn't post, or to attempt to psychoanalyze their motives for posting. (If a topic is worth discussing then who cares about the motives of the person who first posted it?) If you understand that then you understand what _I'm_ talking about.

[HuangKaiVun]

Oh, he understands THAT . . . and lwl's true motives for this post as well.

[lwl]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mu0n:

Lydia decided not to post my clip for some reason (for now, I'll assume she just forgot about it, and that's it not caused by overwhelming embarassment for me). That was recorded in July anyway.

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I think you missed my message to you, saying that I had downloaded the clip initially but not saved it for editing, and no longer have a copy of it (the website that you posted it to no longer has the file accessible) -- and that therefore, please resend.

[lwl]

I think you can read whatever motives you want into my question, frankly -- it's not as if you have to respond if you're feeling "suspicious".

(Also, HKV, actually *read* what I wrote. I was fairly specific to say "commensurate with skill level". Obviously beginners are not expected to sound like virtuosos.)

quote:

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Originally posted by roman:

I feel ready to play a piece when I am able to close my eyes, and feel in my mind EXACTLY what my fingers need to do. When I can get through the entire piece in my mind like that, then I know that my Motor Memory is intact.

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This is interesting -- I'd been wondering if I was unusual in feeling that way. I, too, feel a piece is secure in my hands if I can "play" through the music in my head, from memory, and feel *as if* my body is moving correctly, even if I'm not actually moving at all.

However, to me, this is distinct from really feeling like I'm ready to *perform* it. That feeling is the "I'm not going to screw up horribly" feeling, for me, as opposed to the "I really feel like I can communicate what I want to" feeling.

I often feel like I don't want to work on a piece of music for long enough to make it what I would consider "performance-ready" -- I'm impatient, and that impatience often manifests itself in an eagerness to move along to something new (in musical matters as well as non-musical ones).

My teacher feels, though, that because even when I feel well-prepared I am a victim of stage fright, that I should play in front of others as often as possible, even when a work is in a state that I don't consider "ready". I have really mixed feelings about this -- even if I don't expect the *audience* to "know better", *I* do, and consequently it leads to a certain degree of guilt.

[This message has been edited by lwl (edited 11-11-2001).]

[staylor]

[This message has been edited by staylor (edited 11-11-2001).]