atuning to atonal

[Omobono]

Just thought I'd jot a few lines on the subject of learning a new piece written in "atonal" idiom. (We have a short new orchestral piece for performance this Saturday and rehearsed it once - I'm pragmatic - we're only going to play this piece once ever so the inclination is not to put too much effort in but nor do I want to embarass myself.)

My Approach.

1. Look it over. Irregular time signatures everywhere. Some quick passage work but only a few nasty spots with time to recover between (breathing space).

2. I look for repetitions, patterns, sequences, to get my bearings. (There aren't many.)

3. Intonation is going to be a problem. (I'm wondering if the composer has missed a few accidentals writing out the parts? why has he got B naturals and C flat juxtaposed?) Maybe I can use the unexpected intervals as "landmarks" rather than obstacles.

4. Concentrate more on geting through it "a tempo" than detailed slow repetitive practice.

5. I work out some easier fingerings, even if they're not so pretty - convenience comes before aesthetics on these occasions.

6. I sound o.k. - convincing even, but with the notation and intonation complexity will we get ensemble in our section? That's their problem - I've done my homework!

Omo.

[Scott Bailey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Omobono:

3. Intonation is going to be a problem. (I'm wondering if the composer has missed a few accidentals writing out the parts? why has he got B naturals and C flat juxtaposed?) Maybe I can use the unexpected intervals as "landmarks" rather than obstacles.

---

Most modern composers working in an atonal idiom probably have 12-tone equal temperment in mind when writing the piece. Especially if it's for full orchestra. Intonation-wise, enharmonic notes are probably assumed by the composer to be equivalent pitches. Of course that doesn't help much in terms of ensemble unless you're used to playing in 12tet, as it's not really idiomatic for strings.

It's also possible that the composer intends the intonation to be different for B natural and Cb, but I'm cringing just thinking about that pitch combination.

Using enharmonic notation like B natural and Cb simultaneously is not uncommon in a lot of modern works, and results from a variety of transformational techniques composers use (which are historically related to Baroque fugal techniques). Personally, I don't like to see a lot of enharmonic notation in my own scores, so I'd call a Cb a B natural, if only for the performer's sake.

What's the piece?

Scott Bailey

[MrWoof]

You have my sympathy. I have written dodecaphonic music. I came to the realization that it matters little if someone plays the proper pitches or not, because pitch is not a binding force which holds the piece together. Rather in this style "motives" and overall structure are the focal point of the composition.

Personally I find this style a dead end street. You could sit in front of the television with a matrix and manuscript paper and compose a piece which would sound the same as if you spent hours laboring over it.

I currently write music which is tonal, but not necessarily "key" centered. Very often I do not use key signatures at all; I indicate chromatic alterations where needed.

In a small chamber work then I can see where a composer could intend that B and Cb are different, getting an entire string section to do this though would be asking for trouble. I think the reason for writing Cb must be to set up the next series of pitches. For example would you rather read Cb, D#, Gb or B, D#, F#? It is more clear reading the latter rather than the prior.

Don't sweat it, I'll bet dollars to donuts the audience won't notice the difference in the end. They will "endure" the piece, clap politely, then save their enthusiasm for Hayden symphony you play after it. Always leave them whistling a catchy tune.

Regards,

Don Crandall

[lwl]

The Berg concerto is a twelve-tone composition of great beauty and reasonable accessibility (partially due, no doubt, to the fact that it's based on a set of overlapping triads, thus giving the ear something vaguely tonal to grab onto) -- so it is possible to accomplish something that's not of purely intellectual interest.

I think atonal music throws the violinist because we are so accustomed to thinking in scale-based patterns; the atonality throws away our ability to anticipate and the automatic mechanisms that toss down fingers in tune without us having to think about it.

I would advise "think the pitch that sounds, not the pitch that is notated" and finger accordingly; half the problem is that we play, say, D# on the A string with the 3rd finger, but Eb with the 4th finger, typically.

[K545]

It is not just music written in the 12-tone idiom that poses problems for the player's ear. Neither Bartok nor Shostakovich wrote in the 12-tone idiom (Bartok, I believe, not at all, and Shostakovich only rarely), and yet their music can pose formidable ear problems for the player. In fact, my own experience is that it is easier to achieve pure intonation in the Berg than in, say, the Bartok second concerto, or the Shostakovich 1st concerto.

I find that it helps to re-notate difficult intervals and passages, the principal being that it is easier (for me, at least) to recognize, say, c# down to e as a sixth than d flat down to f flat. In fact, I wish editors would print ossia translations of that kind.

[Scott Bailey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MrWoof:

Personally I find this style a dead end street. You could sit in front of the television with a matrix and manuscript paper and compose a piece which would sound the same as if you spent hours laboring over it.

---

Now, you know you're exaggerating.

There's a lot of tonal music that sounds just as bad, Don. And there are plenty of atonal, even serial, pieces which sound wonderful. Really.

Scott Bailey

[MrWoof]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Bailey:

Now, you know you're exaggerating.

There's a lot of tonal music that sounds just as bad, Don. And there are plenty of atonal, even serial, pieces which sound wonderful. Really.

Scott Bailey

---

I do agree Scott that there is a LOT of tonal music which should go to the circular file. Also there are some serial pieces which are interesting, however, to date serial music has not proven itself to be a main branch in the musical tree, but rather a minor limb. Compositionally I see it as a "device" to be used in the larger context of a piece.

It is sort of like trying to make a cake with with only flour and water, one ends up with paste instead. It may stick together, and is safe to consume, but it will never be a tasty cake.

There is always one who rises to the defense of this style out of some unexplainable loyalty to the ghost of Schoenberg. The fact is that most of the music being currently written is tonal, pan-tonal, and modal.

There is something to be said for a good melody that finds a place in your head and heart. Twelve tone music does not offer this by its very nature, and therefore exists in the isolation of acadamia like a curious biological specemin.

Be honest with yourself, wouldn't you rather listen to a Puccini aria than a sterile sequence of pitches.

I've tried the grass on the other side of the fence, and I know it is not as green.

Respectfully

Don Crandall

[Omobono]

Second rehearsal tonight - It's not a bad piece, but the wind who were suppsed to see their parts a couple of weeks back, were mostly sight-reading. I and my desk partner (viola) worked through a few sections together and things were noticably quiet behind so ensemble was not a huge problem. Checked my part against the score - no discrepencies - it seems all the anomalies are intended, worse luck (my partner is unconvinced and wants to confront the composer!)

Anyway the bitter pill will be more easily digested with the Egmont Overture before and Mozart #20 Concerto to follow.

Omo.

[This message has been edited by Omobono (edited 10-18-2001).]

[Scott Bailey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MrWoof:

I do agree Scott that there is a LOT of tonal music which should go to the circular file. Also there are some serial pieces which are interesting, however, to date serial music has not proven itself to be a main branch in the musical tree, but rather a minor limb. Compositionally I see it as a "device" to be used in the larger context of a piece.

There is always one who rises to the defense of this style out of some unexplainable loyalty to the ghost of Schoenberg. The fact is that most of the music being currently written is tonal, pan-tonal, and modal.

There is something to be said for a good melody that finds a place in your head and heart. Twelve tone music does not offer this by its very nature, and therefore exists in the isolation of acadamia like a curious biological specemin.

Be honest with yourself, wouldn't you rather listen to a Puccini aria than a sterile sequence of pitches.

---

I think serial music is a main limb of the whole atonal branch of the musical tree. And it's not a branch which will wither and die, unless you consider Bach's branch as also having withered and died. Impressionism is gone, too. But once something's in the history of music, it's there permanently, right? All music being written today is "post-Schoenberg", like it or not.

There are serial pieces that have made it into the standard repertoire: "Lulu", Berg's Violin Concerto, some pieces by Boulez, some Stravinsky (Dirge Canons for Dylan Thomas, etc).

And of course strict serialism has had its heyday. Schoenberg was developing it almost a century ago, so now it's just another compositional tool, like fugue. And it bears noting that it's possible to write tonal serial music (I know--I do it myself), and even tonal 12-tone serial music if you construct your pitch class collections properly while building your row. It's not just 12 notes at random and math and matrices. The ear is the most important organ of even a serial composer.

Some of Schoenberg's music has good melodies. I'm a big fan of the Chamber Symphony, and the more I listen to it, the more I like it. And have you never heard "Lulu" or "Wozzeck"? Absolute masterpieces. Why else would the Met put them on? They are no more "sterile series of pitches" than is "the Art of Fugue".

I listen to equal parts baroque, classical (Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven), atonal (Bartok, Janacek, Ligeti) and serial music. I like them all equally, for different reasons. The absolute most relaxing music for me is Bartok's "Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta" which is not 12 tone or strictly serial, but it's pretty darned close.

But we could do this all day, Don. Let's just agree to disagree. And I have a CD of Callas singing Puccini arias that rocks the house, as the kids say.

Scott

[Ken Nielsen]

For what it's worth, here is where I think that it is good to be a keyboardist also. When the going gets tough (Bartok) I head for the keyboard. Hearing it and playing it into my head gives me a strong additional point of reference. I do this sitting at the keyboard with my violin held in position under my chin so I can drive into it using alternate instruments.

[MrWoof]

Yes Scott,

Wozzeck, what a charming story, puts the fun in Dys"fun"ctional.

I sense that you think I'm throwing out the baby with the bath water. This is not so. I have listened, and still listen to lots of things.

I just finished an impressionistic piece for violin and piano. Also something you may like I offer this. Sorry just a midi version. From my song cycle based on Robert Frost's work "The Hill Wife". Movement five "The Impulse" The poem is set for soprano and baritone. It is tonal, but not key centered. enjoy http://home.mpinet.net/alpaca/hw5.mid

Regards,

Don Crandall

[Scott Bailey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MrWoof:

Also something you may like I offer this. Sorry just a midi version. From my song cycle based on Robert Frost's work "The Hill Wife". Movement five "The Impulse" The poem is set for soprano and baritone. It is tonal, but not key centered. enjoy

http://home.mpinet.net/alpaca/hw5.mid

---

Don,

That's very nice. I like the ascending motive that recurs. In return, I offer a couple of pieces:

second movement of a piano sonata

first movement of another piano sonata

first movement of a string quartet

second movement of another string quartet

Unfortunately, my server doesn't allow you to play them from these links, so you'll have to download them to play the music.

To make them quick to download and hear, they're all midi (so you'll have to use your imagination on the strings, but you know what that's like). Guess which one(s) is/are serial composition(s)!

Cheers,

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scott Bailey (edited 10-19-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Scott Bailey (edited 10-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Scott Bailey (edited 10-20-2001).]

[MrWoof]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Bailey:

Don,

That's very nice. I like the ascending motive that recurs. In return, I offer a couple of pieces:

second movement of a piano sonata

first movement of another piano sonata

first movement of a string quartet

second movement of another string quartet

Unfortunately, my server doesn't allow you to play them from these links, so you'll have to download them to play the music.

To make them quick to download and hear, they're all midi (so you'll have to use your imagination on the strings, but you know what that's like). Guess which one(s) is/are serial composition(s)!

Cheers,

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scott Bailey (edited 10-19-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Scott Bailey (edited 10-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Scott Bailey (edited 10-20-2001).]

---

Sorry I could not get the files to come up.

If you want you could email them to me.

Regards,

Don Crandall

[Scott Bailey]

Okay, let's try this. I have made a little webpage with links to the files:

right here.

Clicking on the links plays the files on my machine, and hopefully will on yours.

This is a lot of work for some dumb midi files. I'd point you to my mp3 page, but that would spoil the guessing game...

Scott

[MrWoof]

Hi Scott,

Very interesting. The piece I liked best was the "Second movement from another string quartet".

It had good "flow" and direction to it. It held together well and made an overall statement. Personally I am a fan of Charles Ives and I think I heard a bit of his touch in some of your work as well as some Phillip Glass.

God knows what people hear in mine, lol!

How long have you been writing? I think you are doing a good job, the pieces seem very idomatic to the instruments.

These are the other pieces of the "Hill Wife" Song Cycle based on the poems by Robert Frost and set for piano, soprano, and baritone.

Mvmt. I Lonliness http://home.mpinet.net/alpaca/hwI.mid

The couple comes to live together

Mvmt. II House Fear http://home.mpinet.net/alpaca/hf1.mid

They fear not only the darkness of the cold house, but also the darkness of their shallow relationship.

Mvmt. III The Smile http://home.mpinet.net/alpaca/hw3.mid

A stranger passes by and smiles at her. Just a the gravity of a planet will warp the orbit of a passing comet, his harmless smile destableizes the relationship.

Mvmt. IV The Oft Repeated Dream http://home.mpinet.net/alpaca/hw4.mid

A dark pine scratching the window pane on windy nights causes one of them to have disturbing dreams.

Mvmt. V The Impulse http://home.mpinet.net/alpaca/hw5.mid

As she watches him chop wood one day she runs off, never to return. He goes after, but never finds her. He learns of "finality besides the grave"

Really deep stuff hope you like it all.

Regards,

Don Crandall

[Scott Bailey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MrWoof:

Very interesting. The piece I liked best was the "Second movement from another string quartet".

It had good "flow" and direction to it. It held together well and made an overall statement. Personally I am a fan of Charles Ives and I think I heard a bit of his touch in some of your work as well as some Phillip Glass.

God knows what people hear in mine, lol!

How long have you been writing? I think you are doing a good job, the pieces seem very idomatic to the instruments.

---

Don,

Thanks for listening. The piece you liked was from a sort of baroque suite I wrote a few years ago using a form of modal serialism I was fond of at the time. I'm not too big a fan of Ives or Glass, but I can see where you're coming from, especially with the constant viola arpeggios in that piece.

I've been writing for strings since the mid 80's (I wrote some awful stuff prior to that, in college and before, but I'm trying to forget it now!), but I think I only got serious about it in the last 8 years or so. All of the midis I posted are over 2 years old. I have some more recent (and, oddly enough, very tonal) stuff on my mp3.com page, if you're interested. Current projects are new pieces for piano and a violin sonata. Don't know when I'll finish them...

My wife and I are moving right now, and it's busy at work as well, but hopefully this weekend I'll have time to listen to the rest of the links you put up. I'd like something relaxing to do on Sunday night (if we get a break from packing).

Scott

[MrWoof]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Bailey:

Don,

Thanks for listening. The piece you liked was from a sort of baroque suite I wrote a few years ago using a form of modal serialism I was fond of at the time. I'm not too big a fan of Ives or Glass, but I can see where you're coming from, especially with the constant viola arpeggios in that piece.

I've been writing for strings since the mid 80's (I wrote some awful stuff prior to that, in college and before, but I'm trying to forget it now!), but I think I only got serious about it in the last 8 years or so. All of the midis I posted are over 2 years old. I have some more recent (and, oddly enough, very tonal) stuff

on my mp3.com page

, if you're interested. Current projects are new pieces for piano and a violin sonata. Don't know when I'll finish them...

My wife and I are moving right now, and it's busy at work as well, but hopefully this weekend I'll have time to listen to the rest of the links you put up. I'd like something relaxing to do on Sunday night (if we get a break from packing).

Scott

---

LOL we have all written our share of "awful stuff". I always work from the premise that good music must speak to the heart as well as the head. The mechanism by which you achieve this is of little consequence, but it must do this one thing in order to create an incarnation of the language of the soul. After all isn't music a way to speak to the eternal essence of being in us all.

Regards,

Don Crandall