Ernst's Earlkonig

[Jonathan Rubin]

I have to show this post to the violist in my quartet, so she can show this at the next Viola Society meeting, so they can see why there would never be a Violin Society.

[corncan]

HAHAHA

[HuangKaiVun]

lwl, you wouldn't understand why I would feel offended that K454 would call my views "fatuous".

As I said, you modern violinists are all the same.

[K545]

HKV:

1. I used the word "fatuous" in respect of your assertion that "I feel that Ernst's unaccompanied violin version captures the spirit of the story PERFECTLY...." Your statement was, and is, utter nonsense. There is no way an instrumental transcription can express "the story" of a song, which, after all, is expressed in words. Moreover, since you had made it clear in your earlier exchange of posts with Lydia on this subject that you did not in fact understand the poem, the true meaning of your statement is something like this: "I believe the violin transcription captures the spirit of the story, even though a don't know a d*mned thing about the story."

2. You persistently call me "K454." My handle is "K545," and it has always been "K545." Have you ever thought of having yourself evaluated for dyslexia?

[HuangKaiVun]

Sorry K545. My error. Unlike you, I have civility to own up to my public errors.

I understand this poem PERFECTLY, as I own the Strad magazine printout of the Ernst Manual. I don't see things the same way you do, which you can't handle because you're a modern violinist who can only see things YOUR way.

And it's so like you to accuse somebody of dyslexia that you've never met.

You hate my guts, and quite frankly I hate yours.

I look forward to meeting you in person one day.

[Beaven]

Gentleman, gentleman let us enjoy varigated points of view without ad hominem remarks. People listen and interprete differently. We wouldn't like everyone to be the same or some of us would not matter. I would hope for more grace from those who espouse beauty in violin music. Let us be a vast and congenial orchestra celebrating our differences. Get out your violins, lets strike up the music and have a great time sharing ideas

[K545]

Actually, I didn't accuse you of being dyslexic, I merely asked if you had been evaluated for the condition, one that afflicts many educational dropouts.

[HuangKaiVun]

SHUT UP TROLL!

[vieuxtemps]

Which issue of The Strad has Erlkonig in it?

[Stephen]

It was from over 10 years ago. I lost my copy in a move.

[Mu0n]

Let's go back to the music, shall we? What Mozart pieces correspond to:

K454?

K545?

[Stephen]

454 is, I believe, the "Big B-Flat" sonata for piano & violin.

[K545]

Actually, "K545" is Esperanto for "troll."

[Violinflu]

and 545 is the "Sonatina" Piano Sonata in C-Major

[jake]

K545,

I think you will find many musicologists would disagree with your assertion that

"there is no way an instrumental transcription can express "the story" of a song".

While I might add that a "perfect" depicition is always a subjective term, that doesn't prevent a piece of music from very aptly presenting the same content.

See this exerpt from the New Grove Dictionary on programmatic music as a reference.

http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/g_programme_music.html

[This message has been edited by jake (edited 10-19-2001).]

[lwl]

I would argue that while an instrumental transcription (or even straight-out instrumental composition) can express a story, it's quite different from the true narrative nature of a song. Also, there is a directness to text that is undeniable.

I don't think that anyone would argue that, say, Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique (probably the classic example of a programmatic work) doesn't effectively tell its story. However, with this and other programmatic music, a totally uninformed listener could no doubt derive any number of beliefs about what exactly the story is.

Contrast, though, Berlioz's "Romeo and Juliet" (labeled a "dramatic symphony"), which uses several vocal soloists, a chorus, and orchestra. Consider the effectiveness of its purely-orchestral Queen Mab Scherzo, vs. its scherzetto for tenor, chorus, and orchestra (representing Mercutio's Queen Mab speech). Both are good, vividly colorful pieces of music -- but the text of the scherzetto conveys much more in a direct fashion. You could transcribe the scherzetto for pure orchestra alone and still capture much of the effect, but there is definitely a loss of meaning. And that's just description you're losing, not really a story.

Going back to Erlkonig specifically, just reading this thread, it's pretty clear that those who have only heard the transcription (or have heard the song without knowing what the lyrics meant) actually *didn't* get the meaning of the text. They applied their own interpretations to the meaning of the music -- they came up with their own stories, fundamentally.

Is this necessarily a bad thing? No -- but it does clearly illustrate that the listener of the Erlkonig transcription does not necessarily get what the original Schubert/Goethe song was intended to convey. Now, perhaps you don't care about that -- arguably the music should stand on its own, right? -- but I do think it's something that's worth thinking about.

Does that mean that the transcription shouldn't be played? Of course not. But I think a sensitivity to the meaning is necessary. If you're going to interpret it in your own way, fine, but, I think it should be deliberate, as opposed to out of ignorance of the original.

[K545]

Jake:

Well, yes and no. My statement was, admittedly, overbroad, since I was adopting for the moment HKV's parlance. What I really mean to say is that there is no way a piece of abstract music, no matter how avowedly programmatic, can express the meaning of a poem, any more than a painting can express the meaning of a poem.

I grant you, program music certainly can be evocative, witness famous examples like the Honegger "Pacific 231" (or is it 321?), or Mossolov's "Iron Foundry." And I had a chum in college who insisted, with a perfectly straight face, that he could actually smell the dirty diapers when he listened to Strauss' Sinfonia Domestica. But he was a droll sort, who also claimed to believe that the art of ancient Egypt was perfectly representational, and that the pharaohs really did walk around with their heads, arms and feet sideways.

[iupviolin]

Kindergarden let out hours ago...can we please be a little more grown up. I think the name calling is uncalled for. Please.

[Viola Girl]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jonathan Rubin:

I have to show this post to the violist in my quartet, so she can show this at the next Viola Society meeting, so they can see why there would never be a Violin Society.

---

[Mu0n]

quote:

---

Originally posted by lwl:

Is this necessarily a bad thing? No -- but it does clearly illustrate that the listener of the Erlkonig transcription does not necessarily get what the original Schubert/Goethe song was intended to convey. Now, perhaps you don't care about that -- arguably the music should stand on its own, right? -- but I do think it's something that's worth thinking about.

Does that mean that the transcription shouldn't be played? Of course not. But I think a sensitivity to the meaning is necessary. If you're going to interpret it in your own way, fine, but, I think it should be deliberate, as opposed to out of ignorance of the original.

---

I agree with you to a large extent, Lydia. I too, would find it a bit annoying to see a plethora of bad copies of every major concerto works, sonatas and whatnot. But we live in a world where it's not the case. There is a fair limit to the amounts of "work directly inspired by another work" in classical music. I think the ones that do exist, while they may not perfectly convey the exact same meaning of the original, have an important inherent reason to their existence.

Ernst's Erlkönig most striking feature is that it's often touted as the most difficult violin work to play. If that's not a strong reason for you to justify its existence despite the mismatch you can draw with the original, I don't know what does it for you.

Now as to the question whether you should have expressive freedom while playing this piece, I would simply evoke the way compelling story-telling has been done for ages. That is all.

[This message has been edited by Mu0n (edited 10-19-2001).]

[summer_breeze]

oops, nevermind

[This message has been edited by summer_breeze (edited 10-23-2001).]

[bethr]

I am not familiar with this music so I went to find a clip with the vocal. Is there a clip anywhere of the violin version?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00...2047350-1704504

[lwl]

Bored, and made an attempt at a bit of Erlkonig this morning.

Got me to haul out my recordings and take another listen. Here's a bit of Josefowicz: MP3

(Great left-hand pizzicato. Man, what a pain.)

[LongHair]

Sounds wicked!

Paganini's tough enough for me though.

[JM]

Hi,I am new here . I have been reading for a few days now and I found some interesting information , useless one , funny comments and players of apparently good level toghether with beginners and intermediate ones . But the most remarkable thing I found is this guy named HKV , who showed sings of delirious dominance and big need of atention . Interesting personality , but , who is he ? , or better said , who does he think he is ?