Ernst's Earlkonig

[vieuxtemps]

Read [the translation of] the text. If you have a copy of the score you can see how the harmony/tonality and character of different parts of the piece fit the speaker and content. The recitative at the end (slow single notes in the violin transcription) is the final line or two of the poem.

I like the violin transcription, but I love the song.

-Aman

[This message has been edited by vieuxtemps (edited 10-17-2001).]

[iupviolin]

Actually, for those who don't know what their talking about:

There are 4 people talking in this. The narrator, Father, son, and Erlking...

Narrator

"Who rides so late through the night and wind? Its the father with his child. He has the boy safe in his arms. He holds his secure, he holds him warm."

Then the Father speaks:

"My son, what makes you hide your face in fear?"

The the son says:

"My Father, don't you see the Erlking? The Erlking with the Crown and robe?"

Dad replies:

"My son, its just the Fog"

Then the Erlking speaks:

Dear boy, come with me, so many wonderful games we'll play, many colorful flowers are at the shore, my mom has many golden garmets"

The boy says:

"my father, my father, do you not hear what the Erlking says to me so softly?"

Dad says:

"Quiet, my son, it is the wind sweeping the dry leaves."

Erlking says:

"Why don't you come with me, good boy? My daughters will take good care of you, and they'll do their nightly dance as they rock you and sing you to sleep."

boy says:

"My father, My father! Don't you see the Erlking's daughters over there in that dark place?"

Dad replies:

"My son, my son, I see it, but it is only the willow trees"

Erlking says:

"I love you, I'm charmed by you, if you don't come with me, I will take you by force!"

Boy says:

"My father, My father! The Erlking is taking hold of me! He is hurting me!"

Narrator states:

"The father sudders, he rides swiftly. In his arms is his moaning child. He reaches the farmhouse with difficulty. In his arms the child was dead."

***now you know how the story goes.

[This message has been edited by iupviolin (edited 10-17-2001).]

[K545]

Originally posted by HKV:

"I feel that Ernst's unaccompanied violin version captures the spirit of the story PERFECTLY."

A remarkable statement, especially since your subsequent exchange with lwl demonstrates very clearly that you didn't have the faintest idea what the Goethe poem is about.

The poem is a clever early Romantic-period gloss on a staple icon of medieval allegory.

Without the poem, the song is merely a tune. With a lot of songs--"The Last Rose of Summer," for example, it doesn't matter, since that song is a piece of sentimental trivia. But with a great song, like "Erlkoenig," it matters very much if you strip away the words, since it is precisely the fusion of literary meaning with musical expression that makes great songs great.

I believe that Ernst wrote the Erlkoenig transcription for his own use, as a touring virtuoso and competitor of Paganini. His concerts were a little like sporting events. It's what you did back then: you went to his concerts while you were waiting around for Monday Night Football to be invented.

[lwl]

This actually brings up some interesting questions about transcriptions in general and when they produce something better or at least equally as good (or close to it) as the original.

Paganini (and lots of other virtuoso composers) will write fantasies and theme-and-variations on tunes. These vary in quality and in real musical value, but none of these are, strictly speaking, transcriptions.

I would argue that it is indeed possible to transcribe a work for voice, for some other instrument, and not strip it of all that much of its meaning despite the loss of the text. (I don't think Ernst's Erlkonig manages this, though.)

[Violinflu]

Geez, you guys are hard on this piece!

Myself, I admire it for what it is - a stunning display of the polyphonic possibilities of the violin. The absolute edge of the possible.

btw, after I heard Repin, I heard Josefowicz, and my jaw dropped to the floor. Leila actually makes it sound like music; the gasping melody a valid interpretation of the Schubert song ("Father, oh Father!"). I only wish I could splice in some other violinist for the "easy" stuff at the end; for me, Josefowicz drops the ball at the 1 yard line.

Jesse

[Mu0n]

quote:

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Originally posted by Violinflu:

Geez, you guys are hard on this piece!

Myself, I admire it for what it is - a stunning display of the polyphonic possibilities of the violin. The absolute edge of the possible.

---

Same here. I find it unfortunate that many participants of this thread refuse themselves the enjoyment that certainly can be derived from this impressive transcription.

It has absolute value in the violin perspective - I mean, try to list 10 pieces that are categorically more difficult to play than this one. Would you rather prefer for this transcription NOT to exist? Would you rather have the violin repertoire be STRICTLY a mass of lyrical stuff? Do you NOT like the diversity and sheer extreme quality of the edges of the repertoire? Imho, the Erlkoenig transcription is a cornerstone of its gems.

I also bet it must be a TOTAL BLAST to play, but apparently, there are very few people in this thread that have access to this experience, depriving them of a reason to cherish this piece.

[This message has been edited by Mu0n (edited 10-17-2001).]

[Stephen Fine]

I had the pleasure this summer of watching a friend of mine learn this piece. I had never heard the song or the transcription before (and I still haven't heard the song) so I think that I can say that though as a transcription it might be a failure, as a stand-alone it is a great success. There isn't very much out there more impressive than this piece. I agree that you guys who have heard the song and treasure it so much are being overly harsh on this because it doesn't measure up to the original...

PS- K545... you're acting like the fact that his concerts were like a sporting event is a negative thing. How I wish that my concerts were that well attended. Imagine the excitement that would have been in the air... this piece is most certainly like a sporting event and I for one believe that concerts should be fun (why should we go to something that isn't fun?)

[vieuxtemps]

The transcription will never stand up to the original--depending on how you're looking at it, of course. lwl's thoughts remind me of Milstein on transcriptions, how he thought the end result is more important than faithfulness to the original. I think the Ernst is a great bravura violin piece, but in the end Schubert's text+music version does it for me in more ways than the virtuosic solo version does. If you're interested, here is the Liszt transcription (.PDF format) with the words written above the melody. Hank Schutz's link is great for matching the German text w/ the music and the finding what the German means. Schubert songs are worth understanding. (This link is an A-minor arrangement of the piano-voice version.)

Lately I've preferred lyricism to pyrotechnics, but that doesn't mean I wasn't thinking about the Ernst all day. Josefowicz's version impressed me much more than Repin's. The homophonic bar at the end was a bit of a let down, but all that other stuff before it must be pretty draining, and she does it very well.

-Aman

[Locatelli]

The first time I listened to that piece( I already knew about the Goethe text), it was on the violin( with a superb violinist). I thought: that`s a very interesting violin piece.

But when I listened to the Schubert song, and later the piano transcription by Liszt, it was a really intense musical experience. I touched me in a way the violin transcription could not. Today, I don`t believe that a perfect masterpiece like that Schubert song needs to be transcripted to the violin.

Even so, I think the Ernst transciption is respectful, but his 6 polyphonic etudes are more important to the working violinist.

[lwl]

I've only really heard one work by Ernst that I'd personally like to play -- the Papageno Fantasy, sadly out of print as far as I've been able to determine.

I like some parts of the Last Rose, as well -- particularly in the hands of a player who can make them sound effortless, letting the tune sing sweetly even through all those pyrotechnics.

I have yet to hear any recording of Erlkonig (including Josefowicz's, which was my sole reason for buying that particular CD of hers) where I think "wow, what great music" as opposed to "d*mn, it's impressive that s/he got the notes out".

[K545]

I find, in reviewing these posts, that I have expressed my thoughts badly. Let me try again:

1. There is nothing intrinsically evil about show-off music like Ernst's. In fact, I like the Last Rose, well enough at least to have squandered a lot of time a few years back learning to play it (although not well enough to play it in public). But for me music like this, which is nothing but fireworks, quickly palls.

2. There is nothing sacred about Schubert's song. In making his transcription of the music, Ernst did not commit a war crime. But he did, in my view at least, write a bad piece. I say that because I think the attempt to replicate the piano part on the violin is an utter failure, which always sounds lousy--to my ear at least--even when the piece is attempted by a major virtuoso.

3. There is no point in comparing Ernst's standalone transcription with Schubert's standalone song. They are simply different animals. That being so, it is fatuous in the extreme to assert, as did one poster, that the Ernst transcription perfectly expresses the story told by Schubert's song.

[HuangKaiVun]

In other words, you can't play this stuff and so you don't like it - or me because I CAN.

I like this stuff anyway despite your lack of respect for me or this piece.

[iupviolin]

quote:

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Originally posted by HuangKaiVun:

In other words, you can't play this stuff and so you don't like it - or me because I CAN.

I like this stuff anyway despite your lack of respect for me or this piece.

---

Kevin, Why do you always assume that you're the only person on this board who can play hard music?

Some people just don't like the piece, and for whatever reason that's fine. Its their personal opinion, don't let it get to you. I'm sure they don't disrespect you for any reason (let alone because you can play this piece...).

[HuangKaiVun]

I never said that I was the ONLY person. That is YOUR assumption.

You modern violinists are all the same. You can't play something, you say it sucks as well as those that can.

I'm sick and tired of you fools trashing the predecessors that made violin what it is today.

This isn't directed at YOU, iupviolin. It's directed at K454 and anybody who thinks I or Ernst sucks.

[This message has been edited by HuangKaiVun (edited 10-18-2001).]

[Locatelli]

quote:

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Originally posted by HuangKaiVun:

In other words, you can't play this stuff and so you don't like it - or me because I CAN.

I like this stuff anyway despite your lack of respect for me or this piece.

---

I can play the piece and I have respect for you and the piece.

Having said that, I think you don`t need to express yourself like you did in your post - you`re assuming that you can play better than any other poster and, therefore, only your opinion matters. Some people would find it an arrogant attitude.

Even if you could play so better, it wouldn`t enable you to diminish what other people listen to, think and feel about the piece.

[HuangKaiVun]

"you`re assuming that you can play better than any other poster and, therefore, only your opinion matters"

My initial post was aimed toward K454 only, not you or anyone else.

But since you're intent on trolling on me, SHOW ME where I did what you accused me of doing.

While you're at it, let's hear your Erlkonig sound clip.

[This message has been edited by HuangKaiVun (edited 10-18-2001).]

[purplehaze]

I wonder if I am the only one who is stunned by the hostility in what's been said here.

The wonderful thing that all of you have accomplished in your knowledge of the violin and of masterpieces like Schubert's original text is abused.

Surely beautiful music should never be a trash-talking sport.

[HuangKaiVun]

Welcome to Maestronet, where there's lot of bad blood.

[summer_breeze]

purple_haze, you get used to the hostility, this is really mild compred to other arguments. As for me, I just stay out of it, it is usually not anything that has to do with me anyways. Oh well, without arguments it would be boring.

[paganiniboy]

I have to agree w/ HKV... It's full of things; the top layer is pretty and full of string-happy intent... The bottom seven layers of **** lay below...

P.

[paganiniboy]

quote:

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Originally posted by paganiniboy:

I have to agree w/ HKV... It's full of things; the top layer is pretty and full of string-happy intent... The bottom seven layers of **** lay below...

P.

---

HA! Can you not say he*l? LOL.. it IS in the bible???

[Chaskan]

quote:

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Originally posted by HuangKaiVun:

Welcome to Maestronet, where there's lot of bad blood.

---

Seems to me that it only springs up when you get involved. Only an observation.

[Locatelli]

quote:

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Originally posted by HuangKaiVun:

"you`re assuming that you can play better than any other poster and, therefore, only your opinion matters"

My initial post was aimed toward K454 only, not you or anyone else.

But since you're intent on trolling on me, SHOW ME where I did what you accused me of doing.

While you're at it, let's hear your Erlkonig sound clip.

[This message has been edited by HuangKaiVun (edited 10-18-2001).]

---

In the post I quoted, there was no specific reference to K454 or to anybody. It sounded to me like you directed it to all posters.

But if you`re saying that it`s just between you and K454, that`s ok to me, and I apologize.

About my Erlkönig soundclip, I`m willing to do it( or any other soundclip), but unfortunately, I don`t have any equipment to record myself right now, just an old tape recorder.

In the future( maybe a year from now), I hope to post some clips here and get opinions from you and everybody else.

Friendly,

Locatelli

[HuangKaiVun]

My comments were directed at K454, Locatelli.

Since you took the effort to apologize Locatelli, I'll apologize to YOU for accusing you of trolling.

I respect you AND EVERYONE ELSE HERE (even K454 though he doesn't respect me in the least), and I'd truly love to hear your Erlkonig clips.

Your earlier statement about being good if you could even get one line out is SO TRUE! Only somebody who's actually PLAYED this piece could make such a comment.

When I go to LKH's house this weekend, I'll try to record what little I've worked up on his computer. Then I'll post it here.

I'll be playing the edition that was in the "Strad" magazine Stephen mentioned.

Friendly,

HKV

[lwl]

quote:

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Originally posted by K545:

1. There is nothing intrinsically evil about show-off music like Ernst's.

2. There is nothing sacred about Schubert's song.

3. There is no point in comparing Ernst's standalone transcription with Schubert's standalone song.

---

I am thoroughly puzzled what the heck in any of K545's statements above (or that post in general, which I have quoted only part of) could in any way be construed as offensive.

This sounds like a reasonable, balanced view to me. He doesn't like the transcription for various reasons. He doesn't believe that it's evil, though. And he believes that the transcription is different enough that it cannot be readily compared to the original. One need not be a musician, let alone a violinist, to make these perfectly reasonable, voice-of-moderation statements.

I find it entirely bizarre that someone would assert that another person doesn't like Piece X because he can't play it. People express opinions all the time about liking or not liking one piece of music or another. Just because you're fond of broccoli doesn't mean I need to like it -- or vice versa. The same goes for a musical composition.

I find it even more bizarre that this has suddenly turned into an argument of who-likes-whom, much less, even more strangely, what seems to be an assertion of jealousy ("you don't like me because I can do X and you can't" types of statements).

Dose of perspective here, folks: We're talking about whether or not we like a transcription. People have made points on both sides. Nobody's likely to change their mind, but the discussion has interest and value and, at least for some folks, apparently some educational value. This shouldn't be a big emotional issue for anybody.