What size violin for child/what makers

[DougD]

I have a 4yr old daughter(s) (actually twins) that would like to start violin lessons....at least they think they do?

Anyway, I don't know what size violin to start them on and who makes a decent entry-level instr. Obiviuosly don't want to invest alot in something they'll outgrow quickly (or loose interest in) but want to get something playable (size and quality).

Are the Palantino, Brenton, Lark, Cremona, etc. etc. acceptable for beginners...?

[bleeviola]

I hope you will find a qualified Suzuki teacher for these tykes. Realize that whether they are into it or not, it is the parent who is the one who must make the commitment and create the environment for success. How wonderful that they already have an interest!

Having said that, your teacher is the best person to consult about instruments. All of the brands you mentioned are of substandard quality and I would not recommend them, in my opinion. Of the commonly known brands I would suggest Gliga or Euro. There are others, but I am not as familiar with them. I also have had much success with some "no-name" Asian instruments from Loxahatchee Vintage Strings in Florida. E-mail me for more details; I don't want to be a constant commercial for that company.

Brian Lee

[Keith Rogers]

Have the teacher help you get the size right.

Traditional teachers that teach (music reading) will usually want to wait until the child can read (words) before taking on a student. So, assuming you start with Suzuki, many of those teachers will start your children on "fake" violins -- boxes with a ruler taped to it, and work on posture and bowing before you even need to buy an instrument.

In any case, it will be small. My kids started at age 5 1/2 on a 1/10 size Suzuki. (I think Stroebel says Suzuki 1/10 is really 1/16, and their 1/16 is really a 1/32). Find used ones if you can -- the kids grow out of those tiny sizes fairly quickly. A *violin* shop with a good trade-in policy that also has a supply of used instruments should be considered, if you've got one in the area. Honestly, there is so little sound produced in anything below 1/8 - 1/4 that I don't think spending a bunch of money is wise. Plus 4 year olds have no concept of taking care of things -- at least *one* of mine didn't (and is still working on it..). Good luck!

[Elaine]

Don't buy. Rent. Even if there isn't a good violin shop in your area with a decent rental plan, there are a couple of companies with national rental plans in place.

Elaine

Norman, OK

[bubba]

If you are spending the money for lessons, it doesn't make sense to start a child out on a cheap instrument which is incapable of producing a decent tone. I have found generally speaking that purchasing an instrument shows a commitment on the part of the parent to practice on a regular basis and attend lessons regularly. If my students are able to get a rental instrument from the violin shop I deal with, usually those instruments are adequate for at least the first 6 months. However, we have other outlets in our area renting instruments which are poorly set up, i.e., the bridge has not been properly fitted and keeps popping out, the pegs don't hold and we have to spend most of the instrument tuning, and the strings are the cheapest and produce a tinny, grating sound. None of this is conducive to learning to produce beautiful tone and good intonation. If a student insists on using a substandard instrument, i.e, the lark, cremona, palantino brands, I probably would suggest that they wait until they can afford a better instrument to start the lessons.

Over the years I have also found that it is cheaper to invest a little more at the beginning. When my son was younger, we bought a 1/10th Suzuki instrument. Although we ended up never selling it for sentimental reasons, I could have sold it a number of times for what I paid for it -- so I never lost money and it was nicer than some of the beat up rental instruments I have seen. When he was big enough for a 1/4 size, we bought a Doetsch violin from Potters which was very nice. I sold it to a friend after we were finished with it for what I paid for it. Then later on when I started my own studio, I bought it back. From that point on we bought more expensive instruments, a French 1/2 size and an Italian 3/4. We just kept putting the money from the other ones and added some and were able to purchase top quality instruments. I never lost any money at all on these instruments. In fact, even though we sold the 3/4 to another student taking lessons from our teacher, for what we paid for it, they had it appraised and it had appreciated by $1500 in the three or so years we had the instrument.

My advice would be to find a good violin shop. Rent for the first few months if you can't afford to purchase, and then purchse. Make sure that the shop has a good trade-up policy. The shop we deal with charges about $100-$150 to trade up to the next size. That is probably no more than it would cost to rent and the instruments are almost always better than the rental ones.

[SteveLaBonne]

Several dealers, of which I am most familiar with Johnson String Instruments in Massachusetts (www.johnson-inst.com)will ship _quality_ rental instruments nationwide. Also, when weighing buying vs. renting don't forget that buying is not forever- there's a healthy market for quality student instruments and the loss you take in selling a used one will probably be little if any greater than the rental fees you wasted in renting a piece of junk. And many shops have very favorable trade-in policies.

I made the mistake of renting a Suzuki violin-shaped-object when my daughter started. Ugh. Years later my ears are still ringing from the horrible squeaky sound.

[Eclectic Lady]

I purchased two of those orange shellac violin shaped objects from ebay. They were of the type mentioned in your post (Palatino, Cremona etc.,). I have a five year old and I honestly couldn't afford his lessons plus an expensive rental plan where I didn't have anything in the end. I also figured that when he grew out of it I would give it to another parent with a little one starting out. So, I had to be creative.

Well, that was the idea.........

Here's what I've learned:

No matter what the name brand those $59.,$89, $99 violins are basically all the same. You are paying for the case and Wittner style tailpiece with the instrument thrown in for free.

The bridge, strings and pegs are totally useless.

Set-up fees in violin shops are expensive.

I luckily found Maestronet!! I lurked for months and read every bit of information offered on the site. I learned how to do all that I needed to do here! I purchased and fit a bridge from a blank; chose and put on new strings and tinkered with the pegs. Oh, and I bought a better bow (still cheap but nothing like the mess which came in the outfit).

My son's 1/8 size instrument sounds a lot better (still not great). He's no longer killin' the cats, though! I did all of the improvements for $60 plus endless hours learning something new.

Learning from Maestronetters was the best and most enjoyable experience.

My advice:

Do what is best for you financially and plan to stretch that as time moves on. When he moves up to 1/2 and 3/4 size I will buy a better instrument. I've been looking at the Doetsch(sp) from Potters Violin.

He has the nerve to have talent and will be playing in youth orchestra at six years old.

Oh, if you don't play already, you may consider picking up a violin for yourself You will be investing a lot of time in your twins string education and practice. I play viola with my son on violin. It makes practice time more fun and he rather enjoys my not being very good especially my horrible, jiggly staccato bowing :-)

[Richf]

Wish I knew then what I think I know now. Like many of us, I first bumbled into violins as a Suzuki parent. Here's what I think I know now...

Kids play better and enjoy playing more on a better violin than on a poor one. Kids grow faster at some ages than others, so the size violin they need changes in spurts. You don't have to pay a lot for a good violin, and you can resell them. You can't sell them as easily as you can buy them, but if you buy used and wisely, you can get most of your money back. Now, what I would have done then with that knowledge...

I would still rent the smallest sizes(up to and including 1/4-size), but go with a shop that has quality, well set-up instruments. My son changed quickly in those years, and I learned a lot about violins. Another reason for rentint is that lessons and practice time are truly a challenge, and you may decide the violin is not for you. (On violins, it can take 6 months before you can sound bad on a simple tune -- unlike, say trumpet, where you can sound bad right away.) I would definitely buy a 1/2-size, especially if I could find something like a Suzuki-brand instrument for a couple hundred bucks. (They are availble on ebay, and in my area through a local exchange. Your violin teacher could even help you. By that time you should be able to distinguish the clunkers.) You will probably stay in 1/2-size enough years to make it well worth your while, and then sell it. Then I would rent 3/4-size (we were in that size for only 6 months), before purchasing a full size. (If your child is a slow grower, it may make sense to look for a $200 1/4-size, too. But if you pay much more than that, it will be hard to get your money back.)

In general I have found my small make mistakes to be well worth the education received: a violinist needs to know when thing are broken or just not set up properly, and what it costs to fix things. Why not learn that on a small violin, too. Good luck.

[This message has been edited by Richf (edited 10-05-2001).]

[Arioso]

I'm teaching my four, almost five year old sister violin. She is on a tenth size, but she could do with a slightly larger size probably. Good luck.

~Arioso

[Elaine]

A word of caution on the years per size advice above. Although that is probably right on the money for a lot of kids, I was 3/4 sized for years. Of course, I am (and was) a small female.

Elaine

Norman, OK

[lwl]

I also agree on the caution on the 3/4-size.

A lot of teachers do push kids to a 3/4 as soon as possible, though, because they often sound much better than half-size instruments, and if your teacher is one of those, then you'll probably get a lot more time out of that size.

I had a teacher who did that to me; my next teacher switched me back to the half-size, and I was on that forever. I then only had the three-quarter for a relatively brief time before getting the full-size. But if I'd stayed with the three-quarter when I first switched to it, I'd have played it for years.

[bethr]

For that age child our teacher has children in either 1/16th or 1/10th depending on the size. Having a small instrument is much better for posture development. Often as soon as their posture is solid she moves them up.

My daughter is a very tall 5 1/2 year old, but her hands are still kind of pudgy. She has been back and forth between 1/10 and 1/8 for the last six months, but on the 1/10th as a 4 year old. The 1/8 is still a little big, but the 1/10 is too small and her hand position problems have been fixed.

I think the insturments that you mentioned are poor choices. They don't tune well or feel particulalry comformtable. The Scott Cao seems to be a favorite for teachers in that small of a size. For one reason the bout of the instrment is wider than most and it lets the chin rest mount straight instead of coming up around the side at a lousy angle for the chin. Uncomfortable 4 year olds make BAD STUDENTS!

Better to purchase a better instrument and resell it.