Jump to content
Maestronet Forums

Why Violin


kimdoan
 Share

Recommended Posts

quote:

Originally posted by High Strung:

Interestingly though, why is music so important that parents do pressure kids to it? Why is it not reserved for those who have that passion? Why are people so afraid that they're children are behind, or are "missing something" if they don't play an instrument? I don't understand why parents would ever make kids do something that they didn't want to do (within reason - I don't mean school, baths, or eating vegetables, or even wearing a tie to a formal outing.) Why do parents pressure kids to play? Isn't it just a hobby, or do people see it as an "enlightenment" of the human mind?

Sorry, High Strung, I totally disagree you. There can't be anything about music that could be so disagreeable that it would put a kid off music forever if they have a "bad playing experience." Music can still be enjoyed and appreciated by those who don't play, and of course playing isn't for everyone. But sometimes wonderful opportunities will pass you by in life if you never TRY. That is the ultimate lesson parents teach their children when they "force" them to take lessons of any kind. Sometimes, as in my case, it becomes a lifetime source of joy and spiritual nourishment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

My oldest daughter got bored with piano lessons, and quit in her rather headstrong early high school years.

She's 24 now, and regrets quitting. She still plays at my piano every time she comes back home.

I *knew* she'd come to regret it, but I wasn't prepared to draw a line in the sand over her staying in lessons.

deb
[/b]

Why not encourage her to take it back up. Has anything happened to her physically to prevent her from playing?

I have spoken to many people who "played" an instrument when they were a kid and regret not keeping up with it. To this I usually respond, "get it out of the closet, dust it off, and give it an hour a day." After a while you will surprise yourself at how much you remember.

Christmas is coming, why not give her the piano and some lessons as a present.

Prost

Don Crandall

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with deb -- the children who are most likely to "take" to music are the ones who grow up in homes where everyone makes music, i.e., where it's a natural part of the household routine, rather than a chore that forces one into solitude for an hour of torture.

I believe that music is something all children should be taught -- preferably from as young an age as possible, where it's presented as fun, rather than a burden. That way, it also becomes a natural part of the child's life, before too many things compete for his attention. There's also compelling scientific evidence that, for string players at least, that the instrument must be started by the age of 9 in order to get optimal mental and physiological benefits from it.

I really do believe that it's a core skill, that everyone should have at least some minimal competence with. Children shouldn't be *pushed*, but it should be made clear that they're expected to try to learn the instrument, just like they try to learn math and reading.

I don't think there's "one best way to start". I would say that children without well-developed fine motor coordination are probably better off starting with piano rather than violin. Ditto children who do not yet have a good sense of pitch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I can't afford to buy her a piano, and mine is ... well, mine! What would I play, then? :Grin:

I expect her to buy a piano of her own when she can afford it. She's living about 3 hours from here now, in a shared apartment.

But she just bought her first car, so, first things first, I guess. smile.gif"><P>I deb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

High Strung do you force your child to spend an hour a day on writting, acting, dance, drawing and scultpture, six hours total? You think music is more important because your a musician, but it's not more significant than any other art.

Old school parenting, my ***, you're just foolish and narrow minded.

My parents forced me to pratice my god forsaken French Horn and it took me seven years to find music again(guitar and mandolin).

[This message has been edited by V.Mage (edited 09-07-2001).]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fill a home with music in many ways, and children will gravitate to it.

Let them see you participating with them in music, and it will bolster the concept that music is as much a part of life as math, working, or cooking dinner.

My oldest daughter got bored with piano lessons, and quit in her rather headstrong early high school years.

She's 24 now, and regrets quitting. She still plays at my piano every time she comes back home.

I *knew* she'd come to regret it, but I wasn't prepared to draw a line in the sand over her staying in lessons. My youngest daughter stayed with lessons until she was a Senior in high school, then turned fully into dance instead.

The love of music seems to be in most of us. How it is able to express itself depends on so many things.

Basic music training while kids are young helps them in so many ways. A year of lessons on the piano might indeed end up with them wanting to change instruments. Or 5 years. Or they might want to add an instrument.

Maybe they've friends who play in a band and they want to, too -- so they take up a new instrument.

There are as many scenarios and reasons to do things one way as another as there are children. Some children probably shouldn't be forced into music against their will. Some need it. Good parents usually know when to insist and when to back off.

But the foundation of music is still in the actions.

My kids grew up singing with me. We sang with each other, to the TV, with children's songs on tapes, with my favorite music stations -- later they sang with their favorite music. smile.gif As they got older, we'd play 4-handed pieces on the piano, and when I purchased a keyboard, we had a rip roaring time with both instruments.

When friends took up the guitar, they wanted to, too. When friends needed a pianist/keyboard player, they'd talk to my kids. There've been a half a room full of kids gathered around my piano I don't know how many times as the kids grew up. And I was very rarely the one playing.

Anyway ... I'm not so sure the sudden discussion about what is the right way and the wrong way to deal with music education in children has anything concrete in it.

I think the whole issue has a far more subtle answer to it -- and that the best gift you can give your child is a love of music of all sorts right from the start.

Everything else will sort itself out, sooner or later. There'll always be kids and situations they rebel against, there'll always be regrets 10,20, or 30 years later, there'll always be those who stuck it out for whatever reason through the hard years and there'll always be music. It waits for you.

I believe it is one of God's most wonderous gifts to us.

deb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

V.Mage...what the heck did I say to offend you? I never said children should be pressured to do anything since that's what I'm against...and I certainly never said that music was more important than any other art form, or any other hobby for that matter. Where exactly did you get that from? I would never pressure a child to perform any art form if they didn't choose to.

You were pressured to play the french horn and didn't find music again for seven years. Well, thats exactly what I'm afraid of if parents pressure their child to play "god forsaken" insruments they don't want to play. You proved my argument, but I don't see where you get that I'm an old school parent, or narrow minded. Please enlighten me. I'm all for choice, not for pressure.

By the way, don't ever call me foolish. Having any opinion is not foolish, and I do not appreciate being insulted just because you have a difference of opinion. Please get your facts straight before you accuse me of narrow mindedness. However, I do appreciate the fact that you shared your opinion. Just don't be so insulting about it.

[This message has been edited by High Strung (edited 09-08-2001).]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we've all established that there's a difference between parents "pressuring" their children, and parents having their kids try things to see if they like them. "Putting" a child into some activity isn't pressure, unless the parent MAKES it pressure. I don't want my son to just look at paintings until he discovers a "passion" for art; I want him to ALSO play with finger paints and see if he likes it. (However, I may be posting on this board in a few years to ask you all how to remove finger paint from the walls, the floor, the stove, the inside of the VCR... ) laugh.giflaugh.giflaugh.gif

Laurel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Stephen Ambrose's book Undaunted Courage, about Meriwether Lewis (of the Lewis and Clark expeditions), he quotes a diarist from the year of Lewis's birth (1774), "Any young gentleman, travelling through the Colony...is presumed to be acquainted with dancing, boxing, playing the fiddle, and small sword, and cards."

It seems as though what makes a well-rounded person changes over the centuries. In my family, my parents thought music was a sign of education, so they strongly encouraged my older sister to play piano. The rest of us naturally did because she did. Now we're in our 40's and I'm the only one who still plays an instrument. It does not seem to be a societal expectation nowadays, unlike reading, math, and maybe computer skills.

As we've seen in this discussion, there are a lot of people who see music less as part of a well-rounded education and more as a hobby like any other art. Whether you would push your children to at least understand the basics in music, probably depends on which view of music you have.

I probably come down on the essential part of a person's education side rather than the hobby side. But only until there's a basic understanding of music and music literacy. Then I guess I wouldn't push anyone after that. A couple years, maybe.

I agree about piano being a nice starter, though they're big and expensive.

[This message has been edited by Candace (edited 09-08-2001).]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by V.Mage:

A piano is a lot more expensive than a violin.

You should get her a classical guitar though.

You can buy mine. It is a nice hand made spanish instrument of concert quality. I am asking 2k for it plus shipping. It needs a good home, and I am just not playing it since I have fallen in love with the violin.

If you want details and pics I can send them to you.

DEC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by V.Mage:

My parents forced me to pratice my god forsaken French Horn and it took me seven years to find music again(guitar and mandolin).

[This message has been edited by V.Mage (edited 09-07-2001).]

LOL, I agree that one must posess a passion for playing the horn. When played well the horn has an exquisite voice.

I don't know about the "godforsaken" part though. I suppose that if you have no feeling for it, then the horn could be considered an "instrument of torture."

smile.gif

Don Crandall

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by Candace:

In Stephen Ambrose's book Undaunted Courage, about Meriwether Lewis (of the Lewis and Clark expeditions), he quotes a diarist from the year of Lewis's birth (1774), "Any young gentleman, travelling through the Colony...is presumed to be acquainted with dancing, boxing, playing the fiddle, and small sword, and cards."

[This message has been edited by Candace (edited 09-08-2001).]

LOL, I can dance, wrestle (counts for boxing), play the fiddle, and cards. I'm personally deficient on that small sword stuff. Dang I knew I should have paid more attention when my mom made me take small sword lessons.

heheh

Don Crandall

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We need to have some defintion of terms. What do we mean by pressure? What does encouraging mean? Many adults avoid history, math, reading, music, exercise, and many other things. They may attribute that to that they were forced as a child. I would maintain that children do not know what is best. Ideally we as parents make all learning fun, fun, fun, and schools even more so. What things should children be firmly and interestingly involved with and for how long before they should make a choice about involvement? Difficult questions.

Yes, High Strung, a person can have a "foolish opinion". Opinion do not have value if not based on truth. It is not wrong to have opinions, but many may be based on incolmplete evidence whether from study or experience. Your opinion on how genomes should be explored is only "truly" valuable if you know somthing. IMHO

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by High Strung:

But music is different. Music is either in someone, or it is not, and while some discover they love it early, others "naturally" decide they want to play later. I'm not saying there is a set age for when you have to start, its whenever the individual chooses. Picture a child who does not want to play, but is put through years of lessons (very begrudgingly.) As soon as they're able, they put down the instrument and stop playing, because playing is not fun for them. Its always thought of as a chore. Now, what if that child had been allowed to come to it at their own pace? They would then see that instrument as positive, and would practice willingly because they wanted to.

I've heard a lot of stories about kids who were put off instruments because of their parents voice in their ears telling them to practice. I also know many people who chose to play and love it passionately long after those who were made to play gave up.

No, I'm not saying its the same for everyone. I am not generalizing the entire population. I think the best time varies, because it comes when the person WANTS to play. Music is too precious to have a negative association imprinted on it.

Interestingly though, why is music so important that parents do pressure kids to it? Why is it not reserved for those who have that passion? Why are people so afraid that they're children are behind, or are "missing something" if they don't play an instrument? I don't understand why parents would ever make kids do something that they didn't want to do (within reason - I don't mean school, baths, or eating vegetables, or even wearing a tie to a formal outing.) Why do parents pressure kids to play? Isn't it just a hobby, or do people see it as an "enlightenment" of the human mind?

I have found this thread quite interesting. I have 4 children, and limited resources, so my abililty to give them things they have not expressed an interest in is very limited.

I tend to agree with highstrung in this discussion. I don't think a child should be forced into a 1:1 relationship with an instrument if they have not expressed a desire to do so. If there is no interest or ability it can indeed be a horrible experience. Instead, I have tried to give my children an appreciation of all types of music. We listen to many styles of music, and I really rejoiced when one of my daughters asked for a classical CD for her birthday. They are exposed to my playing, and to all the concerts my orchestra performs since I joined.

They get a lot of the nuts and bolts of music in their schools at an early age. Even our district, which does not have a huge budget, provides vocal music in the elementary school. They are introduced to the reading of music, and the playing of simple instruments. They get a sense of counting, pitch and reading. Then, in the 5th grade they are able to choose an instrument to play. I think the 4th or 5th grade is early enough for most children. The exceptional talents who need to start earlier will manifest themselves. I also think they have more fun learning with their classmates initially, and then go on to private lessons if the desire and the drive is there. So, I'm not sure of what goes on everywhere, but music IS part of elementary school curriculum which is graded the same as all subjects. I don't think anyone denies the importance of a musical education of some kind, but to think that all kids are going to have a desire or talent for it is wrong. I think it would tatter a child's self esteem to be forced into some arbitrary length of time set by the parents if they are not getting it. I would hope in these cases that the teachers would be honest, and end the misery.

I too have met many people who have regretted putting down their instruments. I tell them to take it up again, it will nourish your soul as nothing else can. My daughters have not been as diligent as I would have hoped. My 16 year old stopped clarinet after 5 years because she couldn't stand the band director and the class was not fun for her. I allowed it, because band should be fun. She still picks it up and plays from time to time. My 13 year old has continued her saxophone, but she's coming up to high school with the same band director, so we'll see. My 12 year old quit flute after 1 year, it just was not for her. My 7 year old owns a violin because she was so enamored of mine and spoke of wanting to play it constantly. We have to find a teacher for her. So, out of 4 I have one who seems ready to start early. I'm glad I didn't waste precious time and resources on the others to have suggested they have their musical opportunities early. They have done what they wanted. They at least have the foundation to pick up anything they want in the future, and they appreciate music beyond their top 40 teen radio station, so I think our experiences have been successful. To know that all 4 of them can sit through Beethoven's 5th Symphony, as they did last spring at a concert that went close to 3 hours, is a sucess as well. They all truly enjoyed it, and did not complain of boredom, and I did not see them fidgeting.

I think that these days we have a tendency to plan all our kids time, and not allow them to be kids. A lot of people think the kids are missing out, or they are failure as parents if they do not have their kids involved in clubs, sports, camp, and other activities 24/7. I've never had the resources to do that for 4 kids, and I have felt bad about it, but at least they can entertain themselves, and never sit around with a lost look trying to find something to do. On the other hand, they are truly appreciative of the extra things they do that I pay for and transport them to, because they have selected them on their own and thus get more enjoyment out of the experiences than if I selected for them. So far, all their requests have been reasonable. They know finances are limited, and they choose carefully. They know the value of a dollar, and the value of my time since I work full time, so I think they appreciate it all the more. They know that life is a series of choices, they can't have everything they might want. I certainly don't think these issues are limited to music as I have seen many miserable kids forced into playing a sport they have no ability for, and listened to their parents rant and rave about their performance from the sidelines.

Just my 2 cents worth, have a great day.

Lisa

[This message has been edited by renaissance (edited 09-10-2001).]

[This message has been edited by renaissance (edited 09-10-2001).]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pressure: putting an instrument in front of a child and saying they will be taking lesson, or making a child play an instrument they do not want to play...giving a child lessons who does not want to learn.

Encouragement: exposing your child to many different types and styles of music, as well as many different instruments (musically). The child will either say that they want to learn so they can play like that or they will simply want to admire music from a listening point of view. But, the exposure is there so they appreciate music and may decide to want to try it.

Foolish: without sense, ridiculous, silly...there may be foolish opinions, but what I meant was that people are not foolish for having opinions. Besides, how do you know that personal experience does not account for fact, research, and truth? Scientific findings do not have to be done to know that kids can be turned off of playing because of years of pressure, or that some of the best musicians are those that took up music on their own (and I mean best as in both talent and content for what they're doing.)How do you know I know nothing? What do you "truly" know?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. If the child has a preference, that is ideal, even if you think they don't understand.

2.If the child doesn't find it easy to decide, her preference is that YOU decide for her/him.

3.If YOU don't know either, then it seems like piano should be first.

I think that would be a good systematic way of deciding.

Of course you need the instrument in the house if the child is going to learn on it!

S.Taylor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Originally posted by V.Mage:

I'm very sorry Highstrung, you quoted a post that I mistakenly attributed to you, I apologize profusely.

Cedar is the villain, but I am the fool.

My, thats quite the winning ways you have, insulting two people at one stroke. My self-image doesn't include the terms villian, foolish or narrow-minded and since you don't know me you might think twice about casting aspersions upon my character.

In response I and my wife do stress the importance of the other arts. Drawing, painting, coloring, making clay figures and other art projects are constant projects as our house. The two older children are in a musical theater production of Scrooge. There is lots of singing and dancing in the house. so, yes I do believe in the importance of other arts.

Since you jumped on a high horse, I will to. I notice from your profile that you are a student, which coupled with the tone of your responses let me assume that you have no children. If this is true then you have no first hand knowledge of the subject at hand and thus the weight I place upon your opinion reflects the fact that essentially you don't know what you're talking about.

If you accept my basic premise, that music is a fundamental part of humanity thus everybody should have knowledge about the subject, then I am honor bound by my own personal ethics to provide this knowledge to my children as part of my parental responsibility of preparing them for independent existence in the world.

I feel no remorse in making them practice, just as I feel none in making them read a book, do math homework, make their bed, say please and thank you and a myriad of other rules and behaviors that I enforce. I believe them to be essential pieces of knowledge that everyone should know. I am self-admittedly old-fashioned in my parenting but based on my observation and study those methods seem to produce the best results as opposed to the methods that produce the legions of spoiled, self-indulgent, whiny, lazy, worthless brats that I see far too frequently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My own experience was I started piano at age 7. This helped me learn how to read music and some theory behind the chords and scales, while exposing me to different types of music. THEN I picked up a violin my friend had in 5th grade and since the treble clef was the same as in piano, all I had to learn was HOW to play it. I'll always think that my piano lessons accelerated my learning the violin, and I'll always think they came in the right order. I kept up both through high school, then kept only violin in college. Quit playing both for a few years except for rare occasions, and now violin only (because my mom still has the piano at her house!)

SO... I vote for piano to start. From there, other instruments will come easier.

Previous comments about the violin being more difficult to play well are true. Although good coordination is necessary for both, the violin is MUCH easier to tragically foul up! (Just ask my husband!)

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not worried in the least that some children will be turned of by inept teaching. I am more worried that under the guise of no pressure that they will not be required to become skilled before given a chance to quit.Probably four to six years at a minimum.

Yes ideally they will have outstanding parents who will model by their playing and encouragement that which parents want their children to emulate.

The difference between experience and research is broad. Ideally we systematically have a template and measure over and over and compare the results. In our own experience we may only accidentally remember those things that support our point of view. Are there people who will tell they were turned off off for life because they were made or pressured. Yes. How often does it occur? I don't know. Do you know of school systems where they have measured the number of adult players of instrument that were made to take lessons versus those who were not, but decided on their own to take up and instrument. I do not.

I do know from friends in Music Education in universities that children who go to schools or who have parents who require lessons as a group make and appreciate music in more ways than those who do not. No group statistics will prove a particular case.

Arguing from your own experience is a sample or N of one. Interesting, but at best illuminating. We would have to generate a number of hypothesis and measure them to have some degree of an handle on the question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...