Bach: To Vibrate Or NOT To Vibrate?

[Stephen Fine]

On 5/5/2020 at 1:56 PM, GoPractice said:

the Galimir SQ playing Ravel under the supervision of Ravel is stunning. It's shocking to hear, though as an early modern piece has evolved quite a bit as expected in 100 years.

Neat.  I wasn't familiar with the Galimir recording of Ravel.  I've been listening to the even earlier recording (1928) by the Capet String Quartet.  I think Ravel coached the Capet Quartet too which makes the comparison very interesting.

 

[GoPractice]

The Caput is important but the difference is significant. The individual playing sounds of the Caput is excellent but the performance at that tempo is much more like passionate 8th graders at a good summer camp on their personal time. The Galimir performance does make sense to me. That CD with the Berg is purposeful.

I do rehearse kids at the slower tempos to hear the transformation of ideas and establish a strong pulse between fragment of ideas. Tuning the extended melodies over the cello, might also take time, but the flourishes are significantly better served at the faster tempo. 

Thank you for providing the link. 

[Stephen Fine]

2 hours ago, GoPractice said:

the performance at that tempo is much more like passionate 8th graders at a good summer camp on their personal time.

uh... that's quite an impression their standard tempo gives you. 

Emerson plays it the same speed as Capet, 10 seconds slower.  So does Hagen, 10 seconds faster.  Budapest is a good bit slower.  Cleveland is a little slower.  Enzo Quartet and American Quartet play it closer to Galimir's tempo, but they're both slower.  You have been quite influenced by this Galimir tempo.

[GoPractice]

That Capet's opening tempo is loving? Granted, you are probably correct. Frankly, some of these middle school kids play very well. But I play faster.

Classical pieces and their durations are likely to reflect the actual tempos being played. I am not sure that modern pieces necessarily have to fit a similar mold. The opening of the Capet feels slow. The ascending cello line and the a- to e- then f- c- four measure figure in the 1st violin just do not mesh. Even the American's live performance in 2009 is a little awkward in the first measure. The American at Bowdoin performance is more dramatic and slower.

The Telarc recording of the Cleveland was my reference for many years. It was not my favorite, but the quality was decent and the pairing with the Debussy made it a fine gift to students. I think the opening is faster but with your notes, will check. The Cleveland segues were very nice at the time.

There was a time when performances had to fit the limitation of an LP side and there were some faster and excessively slow performances in the fast. I do not own an original pressing of the Galamir so am not sure of how the sides were configured. A hall with plenty of ambient information can slow the piece performed as it feels more correct, and un-rushed.

I think most ensembles start pulling back at the end of measure 4 of mvmt1. It's an amazing and dramatic moment but not marked ( some would say implied, but that is a choice. )  We chose to start a dramatic decrescendo on the end of beat 3 but do not allow the 1st to slow down but allow him to broaden a bit at measure 6 by using more bow as the harmonic change is smoothing out there. We push through the poco a poco without really changing the tempo but playing on the front of the beats. We thought it helped with the tension and the higher octave figure at measure 17 would again allow the 1st violin to broaden at measure 18. The quartet is so beautiful that the cellist inspired us to play the figures as long breaths. She used to practice yoga for all of us. 

The Galimir might have been an indirect influence. I only heard about it more recently compared to the other recordings that are in carboard boxes in storage. I have not listened to older performances in maybe decades, but when in participating in living composer festivals we generally choose faster tempos if lively and more drawn out depending on the composers' or director's intent. The Barber slow mvmt is case and point where most kids in ensemble play slowly and dramatically then in quartet realize that it's difficult to sustain such angst in one bow. I have played the Ravel in the Redwoods twice and once in the woods next to a brewfest and both times the temps had to be faster due to the lack of boundery support. The forest floors and trees absorb sound. 

Enso. hmmmm. I heard Alban Berg play Schnittke and Beethoven on a program and I felt sort of cheated in that though they worked together and played beautifully, but the tempos were so slow. A friend who got a free ticket complained they dragged their feet so they'd only have to play two pieces. That was the last time I went to hear them. Their recordings were better than the performances. Since then, I have tried to err on the faster side of performances.

 

 

[DR. S]

Great Music is Great Music,  Bach's greatness survives transposition or re-instrumentation or re-orchestration without losing a thing.  Vibrato or no?  Romantic interpretation or Stoic fundamentalism?   Performers choice as to how to play it and the listeners choice as to what they want to hear. The music is not affected and the name of Bach is not sullied.  Get over it people.  Revel in his genius and artistry.  Your opinion is just that.  There is no right or wrong.  Whatever Bach piece you are playing, make it your own. 

[Andres Sender]

2 hours ago, DR. S said:

Great Music is Great Music,  Bach's greatness survives transposition or re-instrumentation or re-orchestration without losing a thing.  Vibrato or no?  Romantic interpretation or Stoic fundamentalism?   Performers choice as to how to play it and the listeners choice as to what they want to hear. The music is not affected and the name of Bach is not sullied.  Get over it people.  Revel in his genius and artistry.  Your opinion is just that.  There is no right or wrong.  Whatever Bach piece you are playing, make it your own. 

Sounds like you've learned so much from this thread.  Well done!

[Bill Merkel]

nothing is worse than hearing a group of musicologists play.  when i hear a player first and foremost under the coerced influence of them i often sense he's fighting against his better instincts.  i think the music itself and the human spirit that transcends time tells you what to do and i think musicians of bach's time would have found karl richter a lot more attractive than harnoncourt.  this is all borne out by the hipps very naturally trending back stylistically from harnoncourt toward richter whether they know it or admit it or not.  the main thing distinguishing them at this point is that residue of thinness that i'm sure has always been hated.  that is something that may be around for a long time.  harnoncourt broke (baroque?) the rudder basically. 

[Stephen Fine]

On 8/20/2020 at 4:52 AM, Bill Merkel said:

nothing is worse than hearing a group of musicologists play.  when i hear a player first and foremost under the coerced influence of them i often sense he's fighting against his better instincts.  i think the music itself and the human spirit that transcends time tells you what to do and i think musicians of bach's time would have found karl richter a lot more attractive than harnoncourt.  this is all borne out by the hipps very naturally trending back stylistically from harnoncourt toward richter whether they know it or admit it or not.  the main thing distinguishing them at this point is that residue of thinness that i'm sure has always been hated.  that is something that may be around for a long time.  harnoncourt broke (baroque?) the rudder basically. 

Rolling my eyes.

Early music performances are SO much better now than they were in the (early and mid) 20th century.  And from a player's perspective, it's more fun to play with appropriate style. If you're going to say Harnoncourt broke Early Music, at least post a link... I have no clue what you're referring to because the only Harnoncourt I've ever heard is wonderful.  One of my favorite Don Giovanni performances was conducted by Harnoncourt and directed by Martin Kušej.  The orchestra is so alive.

Good luck hating it... Donna Anna is played by Netrebko.

 

[Bill Merkel]

^sorry, don't respond to eye rolling.  only winks or bug eyed-ness

ok, this once.  the situation is like a political one.  conservatism vs. hipp wokeness.  my position would be wokeness is more about being woke than the actual matter at hand -- the deepest understanding of the music and music in general.  i'm not going to post links but i'd suggest some things.  bach orchestral suites with casals, and rudolph serkin on piano and alexander schneider on fiddle.  on second thought, think of gould, or heifetz playing bach.  you might consider it old-fashioned but at the same time deep down you get the musicianship, which has been short-circuited.  at the current forefront is gardiner, in scholarship as well as performance, and he is trying to make a hipp outfitted orchestra sound more like what came 50 yrs before.  but even he owing to this discontinuity originating with harnoncourt uses singers that are like folk singers.  so i ask where is the musicianship?  as somebody said a long time ago hipp is not the old way of playing, it's the new way.

[Stephen Fine]

17 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

^sorry, don't respond to eye rolling.  only winks or bug eyed-ness

ok, this once.  the situation is like a political one.  conservatism vs. hipp wokeness.  my position would be wokeness is more about being woke than the actual matter at hand -- the deepest understanding of the music and music in general.  i'm not going to post links but i'd suggest some things.  bach orchestral suites with casals, and rudolph serkin on piano and alexander schneider on fiddle.  on second thought, think of gould, or heifetz playing bach.  you might consider it old-fashioned but at the same time deep down you get the musicianship, which has been short-circuited.  at the current forefront is gardiner, in scholarship as well as performance, and he is trying to make a hipp outfitted orchestra sound more like what came 50 yrs before.  but even he owing to this discontinuity originating with harnoncourt uses singers that are like folk singers.  so i ask where is the musicianship?  as somebody said a long time ago hipp is not the old way of playing, it's the new way.

As we've said many times in this thread before, if the musicianship is at a high enough level, if the musician is literate enough, it doesn't matter too much if they've experimented with Baroque set-up or read old treatises.  So it's a little silly for you to cite Heifetz, Casals, and Serkin.

Obviously, I love Casals' Bach.

Heifetz... I could take or leave his Bach.  I mean, I would listen to it all day because it sounds like Heifetz playing violin which is perfection, but I really don't think he gets what makes Bach fun.  Heifetz makes the violin fun.  Heifetz makes the Bach fun.  But the Bach is fun on its own, and I don't think Heifetz illustrates why.

Gould was presented to me as the height of HIPP by the director of my Baroque Ensemble in grad school.  The clarity of phrasing and rhythms and counterpoint.  He makes the Bach fun.

Your last couple sentences don't make sense to me or I'm ignorant of some of the history.  Did Harnoncourt use folk singers?  What do you mean?

I think Gardiner is fantastic as well.  I'm not sure what you mean when you say he wants his orchestra to sound like an orchestra from 50 years ago.  Which orchestras?  His recording with Viktoria Mullova of the Beethoven Violin Concerto is a prime example of how HIPP has "improved" performance.  That recording is mind-blowing.  (Hard to believe that Patricia Kopatchinskaja's Beethoven can be so completely different and yet I would argue it is also HIPP.)

 

Have I mentioned how obsessed I am with her playing these days?  Oh my!!  She says, why have technique if you're not going to actually use it?

[Eugen Modri]

19 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

^sorry, don't respond to eye rolling.  only winks or bug eyed-ness

ok, this once.  the situation is like a political one.  conservatism vs. hipp wokeness.  my position would be wokeness is more about being woke than the actual matter at hand -- the deepest understanding of the music and music in general.  i'm not going to post links but i'd suggest some things.  bach orchestral suites with casals, and rudolph serkin on piano and alexander schneider on fiddle.  on second thought, think of gould, or heifetz playing bach.  you might consider it old-fashioned but at the same time deep down you get the musicianship, which has been short-circuited.  at the current forefront is gardiner, in scholarship as well as performance, and he is trying to make a hipp outfitted orchestra sound more like what came 50 yrs before.  but even he owing to this discontinuity originating with harnoncourt uses singers that are like folk singers.  so i ask where is the musicianship?  as somebody said a long time ago hipp is not the old way of playing, it's the new way.

Very good post. As to where is the musicianship, there is none. The entire "movement" is meant to give some employment to the dull and the talentless. 

[Stephen Fine]

1 hour ago, Eugen Modri said:

As to where is the musicianship, there is none.

Say it to Viktoria Mullova's face, you coward.  (Did you listen to that Beethoven?)

No, in all seriousness, I'm struggling to figure out who and what you people are talking about?  Please post a link of one of these musically vacant performances by dull talentless performers.

[Eugen Modri]

1 hour ago, Stephen Fine said:

Say it to Viktoria Mullova's face, you coward.  (Did you listen to that Beethoven?)

No, in all seriousness, I'm struggling to figure out who and what you people are talking about?  Please post a link of one of these musically vacant performances by dull talentless performers.

How's Mullova made it in the middle of this ????  

 

You are out of order. "We people" were not talking to you. I am not interested in discussing anything with you. You are grossly incompetent. 

Many do not like Mullova ( I do not care ) and a lot more do not like Netrebko. And many do not like Kopacinskaia or care for her exhibitionism. But you are welcome to like them all - not my business. 

I suggest you go posture somewhere else before I start swearing at you and calling you names.

[Rue]

And here we go...now we're gonna find out whose mom wears army boots...

[Andres Sender]

Stephen there's no point.  Merkel is obviously cherry-picking examples in a flagrant campaign of context-dropping to fulfill his preconceptions.  As with a surprising number of haters of HIP, the 'argument' boils down to a circularity involving "musicality", i.e.:  what's wrong with HIP?  Lack of musicality.  What's musicality?  Modern performance practice.  Along the way we are typically also treated to the implication, more or less veiled, that HIP performers are doing it for some devious hidden motivation.

You're discussing the issue in good faith, that makes the discussion quite lopsided I'm afraid.  Incidentally I suspect the folk singers reference was a disdainful swipe at the fact that HIP singing technique eschews the projection-biased technical and stylistic preferences of modern operatic vocal technique.  Perhaps it is even the case that as with the violin, HIP research may have included dips into folk traditions in a quest for illumination of descriptions of period vocal technique.

[Bill Merkel]

3 hours ago, Stephen Fine said:

Say it to Viktoria Mullova's face, you coward.  (Did you listen to that Beethoven?)

No, in all seriousness, I'm struggling to figure out who and what you people are talking about?  Please post a link of one of these musically vacant performances by dull talentless performers.

haha!  no way. she's tall enough to kick my ass.  she's a particular favorite of mine and i listen to her accompanied bach with PIANO all the time...

I don't want to hate on anybody, just support traditional instruments and traditional musicianship.  not going to start or participate in a bar fight. 

the thought occurred to me a moment ago that i'm sure zukerman could imitate naked gut and a baroque bow using modern equipment...if he chose to...

i'm not going to post negative examples, bad stuff, but i will post this one good recent minor example of traditional instruments in bach.  the flute and oboe here are both modern.  the cello uses a modern bow.  the continuo is a keyboard not a lute.  the fiddles are using baroque bows but it doesn't detract too much.  i'll link you to the middle of it, but listen to the whole thing.  listen to the articulation and phrasing and richness using the modern flute.  what would you trade that for?

to battle!

 

p.s. andres, i'm not saying they should be singing brunhilde, but to me operatic technique adds interest

 

 

 

[Stephen Fine]

1 hour ago, Eugen Modri said:

How's Mullova made it in the middle of this ????  

You are out of order. "We people" were not talking to you. I am not interested in discussing anything with you. You are grossly incompetent. 

Many do not like Mullova ( I do not care ) and a lot more do not like Netrebko. And many do not like Kopacinskaia or care for her exhibitionism. But you are welcome to like them all - not my business. 

I suggest you go posture somewhere else before I start swearing at you and calling you names.

You're just delightful, Eugen.

Sure, plenty of people don't like Mullova and Netrebko, but we laugh at them and their bad taste, right?  Or perhaps we laugh at them for taste that is too discerning.  Either way, we laugh at them for their loss.

Kopatchinskaja is easier to understand.  She is a musician's musician.  A violinist's violinist.  It's easy to see how a layperson who might not have much experience with making artistic choices could misunderstand her.

1 hour ago, Andres Sender said:

Stephen there's no point.  Merkel is obviously cherry-picking examples in a flagrant campaign of context-dropping to fulfill his preconceptions.  As with a surprising number of haters of HIP, the 'argument' boils down to a circularity involving "musicality", i.e.:  what's wrong with HIP?  Lack of musicality.  What's musicality?  Modern performance practice.  Along the way we are typically also treated to the implication, more or less veiled, that HIP performers are doing it for some devious hidden motivation.

You're discussing the issue in good faith, that makes the discussion quite lopsided I'm afraid.  Incidentally I suspect the folk singers reference was a disdainful swipe at the fact that HIP singing technique eschews the projection-biased technical and stylistic preferences of modern operatic vocal technique.  Perhaps it is even the case that as with the violin, HIP research may have included dips into folk traditions in a quest for illumination of descriptions of period vocal technique.

You're right that I'm the only one who seems to be arguing in good faith here.  All I want is an example of bad period-appropriate playing to either agree with or argue against.

22 minutes ago, Bill Merkel said:

haha!  no way. she's tall enough to kick my ass.  she's a particular favorite of mine and i listen to her accompanied bach with PIANO all the time...

I don't want to hate on anybody, just support traditional instruments and traditional musicianship.  not going to start or participate in a bar fight. 

the thought occurred to me a moment ago that i'm sure zukerman could imitate naked gut and a baroque bow using modern equipment...if he chose to...

i'm not going to post negative examples, bad stuff, but i will post this one good recent minor example of traditional instruments in bach.  the flute and oboe here are both modern.  the cello uses a modern bow.  the continuo is a keyboard not a lute.  the fiddles are using baroque bows but it doesn't detract too much.  i'll link you to the middle of it, but listen to the whole thing.  listen to the articulation and phrasing and richness using the modern flute.  what would you trade that for?

to battle!

 

p.s. andreas, i'm not saying they should be singing brunhilde, but to me operatic technique adds interest

What the heck are traditional instruments and traditional musicianship?  Do you mean how it was done when you were growing up?  Your tradition?

Because... didn't it sound different 40 years before that?  And didn't it sound different 40 years before that?  And didn't it sound different 40 years before that?  And didn't it sound different in England and Germany and France and Russia and Italy?

What do you think of Mullova's Beethoven Sonatas with gut strings?  (And what do you think of her Beethoven Concerto I posted?)

If you are criticizing amusical performances, I completely agree with you, boo on people ignoring their own musicality.  But I wish you'd reconsider generalizing about HIPP.  You're missing out on some of the most exciting performances happening today!

[Bill Merkel]

17 minutes ago, Stephen Fine said:

But I wish you'd reconsider generalizing about HIPP.  You're missing out on some of the most exciting performances happening today!

i listen to a lot of it.  plenty of it i like, but i usually either wish they were doing something differently or i think it's great at the time then encounter the alternative.  there are some interesting to listen to singers like charles daniels.  by traditional i mean from before the focus became mostly musicological -- like i believe it was in the time of bach, performance-wise

[Stephen Fine]

Just now, Bill Merkel said:

 by traditional i mean from before the focus became mostly musicological

I've never been in or heard an ensemble that I would describe that way.

Even my Baroque Ensemble in school was all about the music... about feeling it.  It's strange, among almost all of my (professional) colleagues, the perception is that "traditional" orchestral musicians are the ones on a kind of soulless autopilot while the period ensembles are considered livelier and more innovative.

But it certainly makes sense that somewhere there is an ensemble that gets bogged down in arguments over what is the correct historical style.  By and large, HIPP people are nerdier than the rest.

[Bill Merkel]

i just now added something to what you quoted.  do you think performers had more freedom in the time of bach compared to hipp? iow would they have been derided if they somehow managed to sound like modern non-hipp players?  the key to this for me is i don't think there would have been objection to using some portamento or grabbing a big handful of g minor chord...

 

[Stephen Fine]

4 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

i just now added something to what you quoted.  do you think performers had more freedom in the time of bach compared to hipp? iow would they have been derided if they somehow managed to sound like modern non-hipp players?  the key to this for me is i don't think there would have been objection to using some portamento or grabbing a big handful of g minor chord...

I think of it a little bit differently.

Put Heifetz in a room with Bach, and both of them would adapt to each other's style within minutes.  Heifetz would say, "Oh, so that's what you meant!" and Bach would say, "I never thought of it like that, I love it!"

And, the answer to your question is that there's nothing wrong with a portamento or the use of modern bow technique.  What HIPP gives you is a template, a set of concepts that would have been commonplace to musicians of the times and places, and then suggests that you break as many rules while following as many rules as possible.  Or, at least, that's how I think of it, how it was taught to me.

I can be a bit of a pedant in rehearsals talking about what the meter and the tempo and the key signifies about the affect and what that means about pacing and pulse and texture, etc...  But at the end of the day, I also just like to go with the flow and to play music.

[Bill Merkel]

second paragraph is great.  i've thought similar.  i never learned hipp formally, since it was barely a thing then.  my teachers would always ridicule it conceptually in discussion or if it was wafting down the hall...

i remember some of the first explanations for it or liner notes were like you can hear better the individual lines the way it was written.  i have a theory that the real thing was producers realising it sounded better on the typical extremely lousy stereo of the time, protohipp was brighter, zingier than simply modernist like casals and that got it established.  now we all have good stereos and can hear it all.  btw, that is not serkin playing continuo on piano, but ruth laredo.  if you listen closely you can barely hear it.  i wish it was cranked up some in the mix.

[violinnewb]

I have never quite understood these debates.  The beauty of music, musicians, and performances, is that all are diverse.  If someone thinks a piece should be played a certain way, that person can play it that way or listen to someone/group that plays it that way.  There are plenty of traditionalist soloists and ensembles out there.  There are plenty who push the envelope.  There are plenty who blend the old and new.  

The problem, but also the solution, is that music is an ever-evolving art form.  Why debate one way or another?  Its not like Bach on traditional instruments will be a thing of the past.  There are so many people interested and devoted enough to continue the traditions.  

Lastly, it about personal taste.  If you don't like it, it fine.  Its fine to voice an opinion.  But why pass judgment on others for their personal tastes when it comes to classical music?  I don't get it.  Play how you want.  Listen to what you want.  

Here is a great quote: "rejoice with those who rejoice, mourn with those who mourn."  Play with your friends and let those who don't like you play with their friends.  No need to force people to like what you like.  

[violinnewb]

On 8/25/2020 at 6:19 AM, Stephen Fine said:

That recording is mind-blowing.  (Hard to believe that Patricia Kopatchinskaja's Beethoven can be so completely different and yet I would argue it is also HIPP.)

 

Have I mentioned how obsessed I am with her playing these days?  Oh my!!  She says, why have technique if you're not going to actually use it?

Stephen, is this the lady who plays bare footed?  I think I like her style...so...different.

[Andres Sender]

1 hour ago, violinnewb said:

If you don't like it, it fine.  Its fine to voice an opinion.  But why pass judgment on others for their personal tastes when it comes to classical music?  I don't get it.

Pay attention to what the anti-HIPers say.  Often the more vocal ones claim HIP lacks musicality, in others words that it's not something anyone could honestly pursue as a good.  This conclusion leads them to look for the "real" reasons:  i.e. the musicians aren't competent enough to play professionally in a "real" orchestra; just want to lord it over people, etc.  This pattern has been visible in similar conversations that I have observed since the internet was born.