Bach: To Vibrate Or NOT To Vibrate?

[DoggieLove]

I know there are schools debating about this topic, whether you should vibrate in Baroque music or playing it just how it was played in the Baroque era - no vibrato. They say that in the Baroque era there was no vibrato, that's why some play it that way... BUT the other side says if Bach were alive, he'd prefer it with vibrato.

I prefer putting some light vibrato just to give some 'life' to it. IMHO, I think it sounds too plain without it...

What you think, what you think?

[Tony L. Wilson]

I agree that some vibrato can be used without destroying the musicality of it. If one wants to play "just as in Bach's time", they should play it without vibrato. I have Perlman and Zukerman doing a number of Bach pieces WITH vibrato and it sounds great! I prefer to play it with vibrato

[RenaissanceWoman]

Before we get into authenticity vs. Bach's intentions, we have to realize that the modern violin (I'm a violinist so I'm using violins as example) is not quite the same as the baroque violin. For one thing, the modern violin's strings are under much more tension. I have heard it said that while a violin of Bach's time would naturally sound very sweet without vibrato, a modern violin often needs a little vibrato to soften the "edge" - modern strings are brighter. Hmm, I wonder just how much Bach would care about the vibrato thing : ) Anyway, my personal preference is for *a little* vibrato - but much less than many people use, and not as wide. When I do not use vibrato the tone has to be very clear and pleasing, but I do like to use a little here and there to give the tone a bit more "body," making for greater variation in tone colors. But I've only played Bach for a few years, and I still have a lot of exploring to do! Solo Bach is so wonderful.

[iupviolin]

There's this misunderstanding that people have that says that Vibrato didn't exist at all in the Baroque era. This belief is absolutely false. Vibrato was use as an embellishment, like trills and mordents and such. Over all, there was very little of this vibrato used, only where is made sense musically (depending on phrases, dynamics, etc.).

This baroque vibrato was executed a bit different than today's vibrato. It wasn't a prolonged wobbling of the hand. It was really a quick, tight jerk back and forth of the arm.

Whether or not to use modern vibrato in Bach? That's ultimately your decision. I think vibrato brings Bach's music to life, but on the other hand, when I play without vibrato I feel more in touch with him. Its hard to explain. When I play Bach in public recitals I always go sort of half way...I use a light vibrato throughout.

[iupviolin]

Oh...check out HKV's performance of some of Bach's E major Partita. He's going senza vibrato and it really sounds authentic. Check it out!

[illuminatus]

I am in the "vibrate_Bach_school." Whether or not there was vibrato during Bach's time is, I think, not very important to this discussion. If you are not playing a baroque violin with a baroque bow, why do you have to worry about the authenticity?

[neuman21]

personally, i believe diffirently from my teacher on this issue, he thinks that every note should be vibrated, any style, be it baroque, classical, romantic, or modern.

personally, the way i see it is that bach should have very minimal vibrato, used onrly as an embellishment on long notes, i prefer to hear the natural tone of the instrument ring out when playing bach. i think that classical era should have a bit more, but not overdone. in terms of romantic period, i think that there should be vibrato on every note that is not in a run or anything. i have heard recordings, and heard schools of thought that say EVERY note should be vibrated, i think this yet again can sound rather precotious and annoying. one person that is rather guilty of this is pinchas zucherman. now, don't get me wrong, the man is one of the most incredible players out there, but imagine how his playing would sound if he didn't have that constant vibrato going! i mean, i don't think that i have ever heard a straight tone come from any instrument that he has played.

for modern music, i see a general return back almost to the baroque time (depending on the composer of course) i think that many modern pieces show a sort of flat desperation almost, and sapping them up too much with vibrato, covers over the subtelties of what the composer wanted to come through.

maybe i am completely wrong though! i'm sure that no one will hold back their opinion, if i know my string players.

-neuman21

[Ole Bull]

quote:

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Originally posted by iupviolin:

Oh...check out HKV's performance of some of Bach's E major Partita. He's going senza vibrato and it really sounds authentic. Check it out!

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Where? How do I "check it out"?

I'm perplexed, since this is a fast peice consisting almost entirely of 1/16 notes, so where would vibrato feature anyway? In the chord near the end perhaps....

[toasty]

It is already here, pitch is different, but as well Bach did not intend his music for lifers - sorry - so tis for the most part simple.

I prefer LOWER tunings since a sweeter sound is there and no Vibrato is needed most of the time. Total use of it robs the music of many harmonies and I find it sweet and boring .... sorry but that is me.

Another little problem about Bach, he did not think or realize he was making Classical Music, he thought it Modern! No doubt today he would be using Reel, Polka and Jig instead of Minuet etc.

[iupviolin]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ole Bull:

Where? How do I "check it out"?

I'm perplexed, since this is a fast peice consisting almost entirely of 1/16 notes, so where would vibrato feature anyway? In the chord near the end perhaps....

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Mr. Bull,

Perhaps you should go back and listen to the E major partita again. You'll find it consists of more than one movement. It has a preludio, loure, gavotte en rondeau, menuet I and II, bourree, and a gigue...Over 15 minutes of music...and lots of that has room for vibrato. You should listen to the other movements, you might like them.

[dmgardner]

There is evidence that some people played with vibrato all the time in the baroque period. Leopold Mozart disdainfully talked about it in his 'Treatise on the Fundamentals Principles of Violin Playing' 1756. He said," Performers there are who tremble consistently on each note as if they had the palsy." In both Mozart's 'Treatise'and Geminianni's work on playing the violin, they allude to vibrato being used as an embellishment.

[johnp]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ole Bull:

Where? How do I "check it out"?

I'm perplexed, since this is a fast peice consisting almost entirely of 1/16 notes, so where would vibrato feature anyway? In the chord near the end perhaps....

---

You'll find the sound clips here: http://clubg.gaban.com/reunion.html

[DR. S]

Here's my take. In the Baroque period they played music the way they liked it, the way it sounded good to them. We do the same today. I like the rich sound that vibrato adds to a modern instrument. However, I understand the legitimacy of attempting to reproduce the "antique" methods of performance use when certain pieces were written. It gives some insight as to what the composer was hearing.

Here's what I don't like. The halfway approach. "I don't want to vibrate, but it sounds so blah without it so I'll vibrate a little bit on the longer notes" - not as an ornament, but just not enough commitment to do it authentically. Most recorded Baroque specalists do this. What we end up with is a tone of a beginner on long notes with nimble pyrotechnics in the fast parts which I find unsettling.

[Toscha]

I strongly prefer "full-blooded" approach, with vibrato. I wouldn't exactly vibrate like a gypsy in Baroque music, but I do not enjoy listening to "purist, no-vibrato" approach under any circumstances. And I cannot comfortably listen to period style performances with A tuned significantly lower, since I have perfect pitch that is firmly centered around A=440.

Aside from vibrato and tuning, what I don't like the most about period style performances in general is that they don't seem to phrase very musically. The notes are there, and so are the rhythm, but I don't seem to hear any imagination, spontaneity, expression nor spirituality in those performances. Everything is very orderly and pretty, but also pretty expressionless.

I would much rather stick to "full-blooded" performances of Bach by Enescu, Menuhin, Milstein, Szeryng, Grumiaux and Shumsky (not to mention Huberman, Busch, Szigeti and Heifetz) any day. Just remember that Bach was a man full of zest and energy who had 20 to 30 children between his two wives, as Victor Borge used to say. Certainly not a pallid, anemic and dry composer as portrayed by those academicians.

I am also very suspicious of how authentic those "authentic" Baroque performances are. Unless I hear the concerts from 1700s with MY OWN EARS (not possible unless somebody invents time-machine during my lifetime), I have no reason to believe that those performances actually reflect the real thing.

Respectfully,

Toscha

[This message has been edited by Toscha (edited 07-03-2001).]

[oldgeezer]

I am not a purist that insists on original instruments and playing as closely as you can to the way people think they played in the period. There is a reason why instruments such as the sackbutt and vile (oops viol) are obsolete. They aren’t very loud, and they don’t sound very good.

But there is such a thing as good taste and bad taste and playing in a style that is appropriate to the music. Baroque music and Bach in particular should not be played with a big vibrato. When I hear someone playing Bach with a big romantic vibrato I take it as a sign of bad taste and have an urge to strangle a fiddler. A little light fast vibrato to give it a little life is OK.

Toscha mentioned Menuhin and I have a copy of the S&P he recorded at age 18 or so that is remarkable. But sombody should have hit him over the head to reinforce a lesson in the difference between Baroque and Romantic style. Putting in a big vibrato is like messing up a Baroque building with Romantic decoration.

[Zoe]

My teacher approaches Baroque music like as if it has been transposed for the modern violin. Personally, I prefer Bach and Vivaldi played the way Perlman and Zukerman play it, too. Just my personal opinion.......

[Rosie]

When I listen to baroque I like a little light vibrato only when necessary -- too much is too heavy but just a touch is effective. I don't think it really matters that much how they used to do it when the music was contemporary -- isn't music "for all time?" All music should be played how it sounds best TODAY.

[HuangKaiVun]

Thanks for the compliments iupviolin!

The reason I didn't vibrate in my sound clips was because I felt that my vibrato dampened the natural resonance of the strings as well as my emotional projection.

I don't consciously try to imitate the baroque sound, but I can't help but play my modern violin in that style. My posture (bowhold, no chinrest, etc . . .) as well as my experience playing baroque violins contributes to that sound.

Incidentally, Margaret Pardee HATED IT when I played in a baroque style.

She used to accuse me of trying to be like Sergiu Luca - which I found FLATTERING!

[oldgeezer]

I was right there when HKV played Bach and he played a lot more than is available here as sound clips. He has impeccable taste in playing the S&P in addition to polished technique.

If he had played these a big romantic style we might have had an HKV martial arts demonstration. With the player right there it would have been hard to for me to restrain an urge to go for the fiddler and get bounced.

Seriously, I’m surprised that more people on this board with a music education that know how to compose “in the style of” haven’t weighed in on this subject. I don’t have the background but I can recognize styles.

[mariahj]

I feel using vibrato is a way to show how YOU relate to the music you are playing. Plus, it makes what you are sound more exciting! I think using vibrato in Bach pieces should be totally your decision based on your preference.     

[GoPractice]

Your first is about vibrato? Glad you did... 

This is an old ( older, but not too long ago ) discussion but one that is experienced by bowed players at a very important part of their studies. Personally, my feelings parallel yours. It can be a very personal experience when playing any piece of music. The difficulty is in when we perform the music, as there is a responsibility to how we might perform or share a composer's work. Before performing, during rehearsals, we should assess if some forms of expression are over indulgent. If this is thought out well, in a convincing manner, it can be wonderful.

Also, the lack of vibrato is also a form of expression. In some pp passages it is essential to play without ( or way less ) vibrato so this listener has a stable pitch to digest, As crescendos build or phrases develop, light vibrato might be added. Most audiences understand baroque music, thus being more predictable, a performer might, in anticipation, make creative decisions... 

Stepped dynamics in this era is a hot issue. Harpsichordists can not make too many dynamically expressive changes. Many friends can make dynamic changes, but a quill or a pluck on a lute can be limited compared to a bow. If it is available, why not use it? In duo sonatas, when the non-harpsichordists drops in dynamics, that allows the harpsichord to be more readily heard. There is a balance of textures that make this style of music so intimate for both performer and listener. 

Harpsichordists can use micro shifts in rhythm to be expressive. Which we as bow players can also carefully exploit, but the sonic attack is far slower than on a harpsichord... work on bow technique!

We talk mostly about Bach, but this can be useful for many composers of the area. The Handel sonatas have always been challenging in this area.

Pitch is becoming more of an issue...

* also, depending on the thickness of gut strings and the pitch! gut strings can pull harder on the neck than modern strings. The sensation of the tension at the left hand finger tips can be greater on modern strings because they tend to dig into our finger do to their thinness. The crisp feel of a Dominant silver d- string on the violin is possibly due to the diameter. The attack feels different, compared to the aluminum d- string, but find the silver to be more expressive.    

 

[Porteroso]

You choose for yourself. Bach did not mean for his work to be taken so seriously, these were dances he wrote for 1 person. He left many choices to the performer, and you should make those, if you are playing Bach. 

It is so tiring to constantly hear different right ways to play Bach. If you are convinced of your own interpretation, you will convince most listeners. 

[Jo Stephens]

My teacher is in the no vibrato camp. I like vibrato but am glad she makes me practice playing Bach without as it forces me to be much more careful about intonation and bowing correctly. Agree that vibrato is an ornament and probably shouldn’t be applied to absolutely everything.

[The Violin Beautiful]

I think an important part of what makes Bach’s music truly great is its timelessness. The music lends itself quite well to different stylistic interpretations.

If one really wants to go for the sound of the time period in which the music was written, one might as well go the whole way and use a baroque setup with gut strings and a period-specific bow. I don’t think simply cutting out vibrato makes the music more genuine. It’s just a stylistic choice.

I often choose to use minimal vibrato when playing early music, but that’s my personal interpretation. If I’m going for historical accuracy, I change the equipment I’m using as well as the playing style. 

[Andres Sender]

The idea there was "no vibrato" needs to be unpacked a bit.  It's very clear that a form of vibrato was used at least as an ornament during the baroque, and if Leopold Mozart's complaints and Geminiani's recommendations reflect anything widespread, near constant vibrato may not have been unusual by the middle of the 18th c.  But there is reason to think that what they meant by 'vibrato' was slower and IIRC narrower than the 20th century variety.