$100K valuation for Central European cello?

[Stringfellow]

Pardon my ignorance, but I think this is a worthy question. Let's say you walk into multiple shops (top experts to be precise), and they believe that your cello is something German, Austro-Hungarian etc., or simply not Italian, French, or even English.  Nevertheless, they then decide to assign it a valuation of $100K. However, you have no label, no specific school, and no maker. What's actually going on? Do you have in your possession an absolute masterpiece from Mittenwald, yet nobody knows who made something that nice so they estimate on the high end? (Hard to believe...) Or, is it more likely that you have something nice from outside of Central Europe, but they just can't figure it out, and so they split the difference? I find myself in this predicament, and something just doesn't add up. Can someone explain to me what might be driving the high valuation? Is it simply the materials and craftsmanship that drive such a value? Is this how a top expert concedes defeat, yet honors what the eyes can clearly see? 

[jacobsaunders]

Should you wish anybody to opine on a cello, you will have to provide pictures 

 

[Stringfellow]

It's already on here. I'm the guy with the "extra hole." I recently even put in some pictures of the inside as you requested to see. I think my above question is still valid regardless. It is something that is actually happening, and perhaps someone can tell me why.

[nathan slobodkin]

What do you mean by "assign it a value"? Is someone offering to buy it for that? Write an insurance letter for that amount? There is some context missing here.

[jacobsaunders]

1 hour ago, Stringfellow said:

I'm the guy with the "extra hole."

I hadn’t realised that holes are so expensive

[Stringfellow]

49 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

What do you mean by "assign it a value"? Is someone offering to buy it for that? Write an insurance letter for that amount? There is some context missing here.

Good question. They simply say that $100K is an "appropriate value" for the instrument. I would assume they at least mean insurance, but sounds rather all- encompassing. I think my question still remains regardless. 

[Stringfellow]

5 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I hadn’t realised that holes are so expensive

Well, David Burgess considers it a "bonus hole," therefore you gotta pay extra...

[Stringfellow]

5 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I hadn’t realised that holes are so expensive

Well, David Burgess considers it a "bonus hole," therefore you gotta pay extra...

[deans]

I can easily see a particularly nice example, in good condition, of a German cello being difficult to replace. Think Widhalm or something like that. You may have to spend a lot of time to find an equal and pay top dollar. 100k is believable.

With that said, these appraisers should be able to tell you more, at least a school of making and age.

[Blank face]

3 hours ago, Stringfellow said:

Good question. They simply say that $100K is an "appropriate value" for the instrument. I would assume they at least mean insurance, but sounds rather all- encompassing. I think my question still remains regardless. 

Just saying something without giving a clear attribution nor putting it in writing means absolutely nothing and won’t buy you anything.

In fact it sounds to me like “give him a random number high enough that he will leave us alone “.

[Stringfellow]

4 hours ago, Blank face said:

Just saying something without giving a clear attribution nor putting it in writing means absolutely nothing and won’t buy you anything.

In fact it sounds to me like “give him a random number high enough that he will leave us alone “.

Agreed. However, my first two instances of this were written insurance appraisals. The first was back in 2002, states $90K, and that it needs to be seen by Etienne Vatelot. The second is for $100K and does specify "made by a fine craftsman of the Prague school." (I have since had two shops in Prague say it's not Prague.) 

[Stringfellow]

Here is the link again for the pics:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7HFHxVGzjBjfASE79

[Stringfellow]

And here are some highly mediocre pics I attempted to take of the inside:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KcXcijDSJj5M4x7n7

[Blank face]

At least the linings are mortised into the corner blocks as it's expected at a Mittenwald cello.

The old valuations appear to be also just random as a "significant cello". As it was discussed before, one should think you need a defintive confirmation about a rough place and period of origin for a reliable judgement.

 

[deans]

You should definitely get this insured. You obviously dont want to be over paying for premiums. But make sure it considers all of the costs of replacement. 

I think you just need to find the right appraiser. 

[Stringfellow]

And if it is of any consequence, I have two dendro reports that both say roughly 1830. My question is with the cross matching results. On one of the reports, most of them are in the 18th century, with makers that were dead before the cello was supposedly made. (Klotz) The most significant names that popped up are Neuner, Johannes Rieger, JB Schweitzer, Petrus Schulz, Vuillaume (J.B. and N.F.), J.L. Mast, Bisiach, Postiglione, Derazey, Kennedy, Duke/Fendt, Marconcini, Vinaccia. Is there any chance this is some sort of a Mirecourt cello? Brussels perhaps? Maybe the Rieger/Fiorini duo? 

[Stringfellow]

1 hour ago, Blank face said:

At least the linings are mortised into the corner blocks as it's expected at a Mittenwald cello.

The old valuations appear to be also just random as a "significant cello". As it was discussed before, one should think you need a defintive confirmation about a rough place and period of origin for a reliable judgement.

 

Thank you. What I would like to know is why Mittenwald is repeatedly shot down by those who have seen the cello in person. Are some of these techniques transferrable to other makers?

[Blank face]

13 minutes ago, Stringfellow said:

Thank you. What I would like to know is why Mittenwald is repeatedly shot down by those who have seen the cello in person. Are some of these techniques transferrable to other makers?

It depends of what they might know or have seen from Mittenwald, and from which period. Construction techniques similar to Mittenwald school can be found widely in Sothern Germany and Austria. Old Vienna and and Prague had similar during the 18th and 19th century, but mostly some other features are making it possible to distinguish them.

[Dorisch]

I don't think I have ever read a certificate before that basically says "no idea, but looks fance, so it's rather expensive!". Not one that came from a trustworthy source, that is. 

[Stringfellow]

1 hour ago, Blank face said:

It depends of what they might know or have seen from Mittenwald, and from which period. Construction techniques similar to Mittenwald school can be found widely in Sothern Germany and Austria. Old Vienna and and Prague had similar during the 18th and 19th century, but mostly some other features are making it possible to distinguish them.

Just got this from A.I. and so have no clue if it's accurate:

 

Yes, many 19th-century French cello and violin makers (particularly fine makers or those working in the classic traditions modeled after Italian or high-end French schools) did mortise (let into) the middle bout or C-bout linings into the corner blocks.

[Altgeiger]

22 minutes ago, Stringfellow said:

Just got this from A.I. and so have no clue if it's accurate

Then why are you repeating it?

[Peterhamm]

51 minutes ago, Stringfellow said:

Just got this from A.I. and so have no clue if it's accurate:

 

Yes, many 19th-century French cello and violin makers (particularly fine makers or those working in the classic traditions modeled after Italian or high-end French schools) did mortise (let into) the middle bout or C-bout linings into the corner blocks.

Quick tip if you’re gonna use AI when it says something it also cites which site it got it from so you can more often than not get it from the direct source and verify the information. AI likes to twist things. And don’t use pictures with AI you can take a picture of a 150 dollar trade instrument and it will be convinced that you possess the messiah strad. 

[Blank face]

1 hour ago, Stringfellow said:

Just got this from A.I. and so have no clue if it's accurate:

 

Yes, many 19th-century French cello and violin makers (particularly fine makers or those working in the classic traditions modeled after Italian or high-end French schools) did mortise (let into) the middle bout or C-bout linings into the corner blocks.

When makers like Pique, Lupot, Vuillaume etc. imitated the Cremose internally construction it looked different, usually very squarish similar to Strad.

 I can see no French features from these makers at your cello, neither at the way the purfling is made nor at the scroll with the Mittenwaldish Hinterkopf or any other.

[Stringfellow]

2 hours ago, Blank face said:

When makers like Pique, Lupot, Vuillaume etc. imitated the Cremose internally construction it looked different, usually very squarish similar to Strad.

 I can see no French features from these makers at your cello, neither at the way the purfling is made nor at the scroll with the Mittenwaldish Hinterkopf or any other.

Thank you! I learned something useful.

[Blank face]

One can see many of these French instruments with a lot of internal views at violindocs, for comparison.