Old possibly italian violin identification

[Tinseka]

Greetings!

I have had this violin for a decade now. Got it from a dealer about a decade ago for cheap because it sounded great. I took it to the local luthier recently and he repaired it a bit more professionally and set it up. It sounds really good now as far as i can tell. The violin has a very obviusly fake giuseppe ornati label inside and i asked the luthier to give me an opinion on its true origins. He said it has a very italian edge and the purfling is done nice aswell. The scroll he said is okay but nothing to write home about. He also couldn't quite tell what its supposed to replicate (said it looked similar to stradivari but not quite). He said its probably not german Hungarian or czech tho and suspects a lesser known italian maker or a manufacture but was not sure. Upon opening it he also confirmed the corner blocks are real and it was made using traditional methods. its got a two piece back and top plates and its made from what seems to be pretty good wood. Anyone have any ideas on who could have made it? Our guess was that its about 80-100 years old.

Edited July 10 by Tinseka

[Blank face]

Reminds me of a Friedrich August Meisel arond 1880 I once had. Or a Carl August Hopf, or Christian Goram, or another late 19th Klingenthal maker.

Unfortunately the long bottom post crack and black cracks make it a monetary negligible. Not sure if the scroll belongs, looks partially revarnished.

[Tinseka]

14 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Reminds me of a Friedrich August Meisel arond 1880 I once had. Or a Carl August Hopf, or Christian Goram, or another late 19th Klingenthal maker.

Unfortunately the long bottom post crack and black cracks make it a monetary negligible. Not sure if the scroll belongs, looks partially revarnished.

Thank you for your opinion, i looked them up and i see your point and maybe I'm looking too closely at it but the lower part of the f holes seems to be much less pointy and pronounced on klingenthal violins than on this one? Otherwise pretty similar i believe.

[Tinseka]

Update: 

I also found this written on the underside of the old bridge. Possibly a luthier or a previous owner? 

[Brad Dorsey]

Probably the person who fitted the bridge and the date it was fitted.

[Blank face]

19 hours ago, Tinseka said:

Thank you for your opinion, i looked them up and i see your point and maybe I'm looking too closely at it but the lower part of the f holes seems to be much less pointy and pronounced on klingenthal violins than on this one? Otherwise pretty similar i believe.

There were several workshops in the town producing different styles. In fact these ff are as pointy as some of the much older David Hopf violins, so they might have taken the design idea from those (to risk a bit of speculation). Nothing to worry much about.

[Violadamore]

20 hours ago, Blank face said:

Reminds me of a Friedrich August Meisel arond 1880 I once had. Or a Carl August Hopf, or Christian Goram, or another late 19th Klingenthal maker.

IMHO, not with the very pronounced F-hole fluting and boldly fluted scroll (totally lacking any hint of a delta, too).  Then there's the pegged back.  I don't know what it is, but it isn't a Vogtland usual.  A strong (but not exclusive) case could be made for bush-league Italian.

20 hours ago, Tinseka said:

Thank you for your opinion, i looked them up and i see your point and maybe I'm looking too closely at it but the lower part of the f holes seems to be much less pointy and pronounced on klingenthal violins than on this one? Otherwise pretty similar i believe.

Welcome to MNet!! 

The only issue I see is the amount of damage.  If you aren't concerned with reselling it, and you enjoy playing it, don't worry about it.  Congrats on a nice playing antique violin.  

[Blank face]

15 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

IMHO, not with the very pronounced F-hole fluting and boldly fluted scroll (totally lacking any hint of a delta, too).  Then there's the pegged back.  I don't know what it is, but it isn't a Vogtland usual.  A strong (but not exclusive) case could be made for bush-league Italian

These were the so-called “feine Geigen”, of course not the usual. The scroll looks overworked and revarnished anyway, as I pointed out, and might even not belong.

Exaggerating the ff flying with that high edges became very typical for some of the production later on.

Better for the $$ for sure to sell every better looking Vogtlandish as Italian, for or as the clueless.

[Blank face]

Looking at this Glass 1889 in Zoebisch one might get an idea (Glass was a very old-established Klingenthal dynasty). Regarding the ff fluting, by the op photos I’m not even sure if the varnish at the body is original at all and this flutings aren’t a later alteration.

[Blank face]

From the side view the ff look fluted, too, what would match the high ridges of the scroll. Maybe it could get a certification as a bush- league, too?

[Violadamore]

1 hour ago, Blank face said:

These were the so-called “feine Geigen”, of course not the usual. The scroll looks overworked and revarnished anyway, as I pointed out, and might even not belong.

Exaggerating the ff flying with that high edges became very typical for some of the production later on.

Better for the $$ for sure to sell every better looking Vogtlandish as Italian, for or as the clueless.

 

1 hour ago, Blank face said:

Looking at this Glass 1889 in Zoebisch one might get an idea (Glass was a very old-established Klingenthal dynasty). Regarding the ff fluting, by the op photos I’m not even sure if the varnish at the body is original at all and this flutings arej a later alteration.

 

57 minutes ago, Blank face said:

From the side view the ff look fluted, too, what would match the high ridges of the scroll. Maybe it could get a certification as a bush- league, too?

No, they don't match the OP, and you know it.  It falls outside the envelope for Musikwinkel violins, as well as for Mittenwald, and could be from nearly anywhere but Germany or China.  That doesn't make it a masterpiece, either.   

[Tinseka]

2 hours ago, Violadamore said:

IMHO, not with the very pronounced F-hole fluting and boldly fluted scroll (totally lacking any hint of a delta, too).  Then there's the pegged back.  I don't know what it is, but it isn't a Vogtland usual.  A strong (but not exclusive) case could be made for bush-league Italian.

Welcome to MNet!! 

The only issue I see is the amount of damage.  If you aren't concerned with reselling it, and you enjoy playing it, don't worry about it.  Congrats on a nice playing antique violin.  

Thank you! Yes my luthier (very trusted guy, probably the best in the country) said he doesn't think its german and suspected a lesser italian maker. He also opened it up and I had him redo the cracks and set it up so its stable and safe for playing also i paid around 800€ for it back then so im not worried about its monetary value but it would still be good to know (;. It sounds great and carries too, its pretty loud. The D and G strings especially sound great. I was also thinking (I'm no expert) that since it is labeled // Giuseppe Ornati milano 1926 // (not an original ornati label) could it maybe be a copy of his work or something along the lines? On a first glance it does look similar to some of his violins... I dont want to rule anything out tho and it could be a german instrument. At the end of the day, what do I know  they also made some good instruments (:

 

Later edit: further inspection of of Ornati's work leads me to believe its not a copy of his work either. The f holes dont match up at all although he did use similar two piece back plate construction. The pins in the back plate confuse me... Im not aware of any maker that made the backs like that, nor have i seen any similarities on other violins...

Edited July 11 by Tinseka

[Blank face]

1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

 

 

No, they don't match the OP, and you know it.  It falls outside the envelope for Musikwinkel violins, as well as for Mittenwald, and could be from nearly anywhere but Germany or China.  That doesn't make it a masterpiece, either.   

I don’t know how you come to think you’re knowing what I know. At least you admitted not to know what it is, and I fully agree that you neither know what it is nor it isn’t.

The violin is a Glass or close related in a rather poor and altered condition.

It’s a bit limited to assume that anything not fitting into one’s pidgeonholes is sort of Italian, no matter what wishful thinking is suggesting.

[Tinseka]

6 minutes ago, Blank face said:

I don’t know how you come to think you’re knowing what I know. At least you admitted not to know what it is, and I fully agree that you neither know what it is nor it isn’t.

The violin is a Glass or close related in a rather poor and altered condition.

It’s a bit limited to assume that anything not fitting into one’s pidgeonholes is sort of Italian, no matter what wishful thinking is suggesting.

Do you know if these Glass violins and other similar klingenthal ones were built using internal moulds or are they on the back construction?

[Violadamore]

45 minutes ago, Blank face said:

I don’t know how you come to think you’re knowing what I know. At least you admitted not to know what it is, and I fully agree that you neither know what it is nor it isn’t.

The violin is a Glass or close related in a rather poor and altered condition.

It’s a bit limited to assume that anything not fitting into one’s pidgeonholes is sort of Italian, no matter what wishful thinking is suggesting.

Oh, yeah.  "[A]ltered condition" can explain away anything.  Good tactics.   

[Blank face]

You’re finally agreeing?

[Violadamore]

5 hours ago, Tinseka said:

Do you know if these Glass violins and other similar klingenthal ones were built using internal moulds or are they on the back construction?

Yes.   The Glass "dynasty" lasted into the 20th. Century, not all of them stayed in Klingenthal, and some are noted in the literature as having made Stradivari or Stainer models (which statement implies use of an inside mold).  OTOH, all of the Klingenthal violins I have seen and handled have been made built-on-back, usually have inked "purfling", and through necks were also common in the area.

A major reason that I disagree with Blankie on the origin of your violin is that its F-hole fluting is not a simple alteration of the wings, it extends into the edgework as well as the upper bout arching, which would require that the areas cut into be excessively thick when first finished, if the fluting was not premeditated from the initial carving of the plate.  Added to the style of scroll fluting, to the back pins, and to what you report of the interior work, plus the evident age of the instrument, this all suggests to me that your violin was most probably not made in Saxony or Bohemia.  

 

[Tinseka]

3 hours ago, Violadamore said:

Yes.   The Glass "dynasty" lasted into the 20th. Century, not all of them stayed in Klingenthal, and some are noted in the literature as having made Stradivari or Stainer models (which statement implies use of an inside mold).  OTOH, all of the Klingenthal violins I have seen and handled have been made built-on-back, usually have inked "purfling", and through necks were also common in the area.

A major reason that I disagree with Blankie on the origin of your violin is that its F-hole fluting is not a simple alteration of the wings, it extends into the edgework as well as the upper bout arching, which would require that the areas cut into be excessively thick when first finished, if the fluting was not premeditated from the initial carving of the plate.  Added to the style of scroll fluting, to the back pins, and to what you report of the interior work, plus the evident age of the instrument, this all suggests to me that your violin was most probably not made in Saxony or Bohemia.  

 

Okay thanks! Im really grateful for any help i can get. 

Again I'm no expert but you have fair arguments and I i also trust my luthier, who was of the same opinion when hands on. Now the difficult part is finding out who actually DID make it (;

Do you need any more photos at a specific angle that would help clarify things?

[Blank face]

10 hours ago, Tinseka said:

Do you know if these Glass violins and other similar klingenthal ones were built using internal moulds or are they on the back construction?

As I stated before, Klingenthal and it's surroundings was home of several very old established violin maker families like Hopf, Hoyer, Meinel, Meisel, Glass, Goram, and some more. They didn't produce as many as the larger towns Markneukirchen or Schönbach, but had a large number of comparatively good instruments. That these had mostly inked purfling is a misinformation (though some had), like other stereotypes "always bright/dark varnish" and so on.

The method used there was building the ribs on the back, traditionally with a throughneck, but towards the end of the 19th century they changed this towards a "modern" neck construction. Building on the back is a very traditional method (as your luthier suggested) and does mean that corner blocks were inserted after the fact. They could be none at all, thin plates, or full space "real" ones, so that's nothing what informs you about the construction method used, in opposite to certain folk opinions. 

Inside mould is usually featuring assymetrical corner blocks, being much longer in the upper and lower bouts, very often a one piece lower rib, and others which can be finally seen only in an opened state. You could ask your luthier for that, also if the linings were morticed into the blocks.

If the literature (often just copied promotion) writes something about Strad or Stainer models being used, this is telling you absolutely nothing about the construction method. Assuming this is nonsense, similar to the presence of fluted f-holes, or bottom pins being so far remote from the blocks that they never could have been part of an original construction.

Looking closer at the photos of your instrument, you might find that especially the ribs are showing the "orange peel" surface, what's always an evidence for a later stripping and revarnishing, also some darker spots in the ground, especially at the deeper points at the edge fluting close to the purfling. This makes it a matter of speculation how your violin might have looked originally, or if the scroll belongs.

[Tinseka]

7 minutes ago, Blank face said:

As I stated before, Klingenthal and it's surroundings was home of several very old established violin maker families like Hopf, Hoyer, Meinel, Meisel, Glass, Goram, and some more. They didn't produce as many as the larger towns Markneukirchen or Schönbach, but had a large number of comparatively good instruments. That these had mostly inked purfling is a misinformation (though some had).

The method used there was building the ribs on the back, traditionally with a throughneck, but towards the end of the 19th century they changed this towards a "modern" neck construction. Building on the back is a very traditional method (as your luthier suggested) and does mean that corner blocks were inserted after the fact. They could be none at all, thin plates, or full space "real" ones, so that's nothing what informs you about the construction method used, in opposite to certain folk opinions. 

Inside mould is usually featuring assymetrical corner blocks, being much longer in the upper and lower bouts, very often a one piece lower rib. If the literature (often just copiued promotion) writes something about Strad or Stainer models being used, this tells absolutely nothing about the construction method. Assuming this is nonsense, similar to the presence of fluted f-holes, or bottom pins being so far remote from the blocks that they never could have been part of an original construction.

Looking closer at the photos of your instrument, you might find that especially the ribs are showing the "orange peel" surface, what's always an evidence for a later stripping and revarnishing, also some darker spots in the ground, especially at the deeper points at the edge fluting close to the purfling. This makes it a matter of speculation how your violin might have looked originally, or if the scroll belongs.

Okay thank you for your thoughts aswell. My luthier believes it was built with an internal mould. I trust his judgement and i would probably rule out any built on the back theory just because of his hands on opinion. However as you stated that older german instruments could also be crafted this way there is a possibility... Then again could it possibly be that old? Also i believe that if the instrument was severely modified after the fact, my luthier would have noted that and mentioned it but i dont think he did. He just said that judging by internal construction and the edgework he believes its not vogtlandish or hungarian...

[Blank face]

5 hours ago, Tinseka said:

Okay thank you for your thoughts aswell. My luthier believes it was built with an internal mould. I trust his judgement and i would probably rule out any built on the back theory just because of his hands on opinion. However as you stated that older german instruments could also be crafted this way there is a possibility... Then again could it possibly be that old? Also i believe that if the instrument was severely modified after the fact, my luthier would have noted that and mentioned it but i dont think he did. He just said that judging by internal construction and the edgework he believes its not vogtlandish or hungarian...

Of course the Mittenwald school, Viennese, Budapest and a lot more German or related traditions were and are still constructing with internals moulds, so excluding such an origin this way seems very odd. Someone who's a good maker and/or restorer isn't necessarily also well informed about identifying regional stylistics.

An internal mould isn't pointing eclusively to Italy, where they used a lot of different construction methods, internal mould in Cremona, built on the back in Brescia, Milano or Naples, with channels in Piedmont and a lot more. 

This all sounds a bit as if there's a lot of confusion going on. 

I gave you some clues to check the internal construction, that's all I can add. Without knowing these in detail there's not much to tell further. As I said, a lot of features, including the purfling sitting halfway up at high rounded edgework, short deep channeling there, position of the ff with widely outward swungen lower wings, lower rib passed with a purfling stripe and more are clearly setting this violin into a Vogtlandish tradition in my eyes. If you're saying the linings are inserted into assymetrical corner blocks, one could look into some of the smaller South German building areas, which occasionally could show a mixture between both styles.

[Tinseka]

5 hours ago, Blank face said:

Of course the Mittenwald school, Viennese, Budapest and a lot more German or related traditions were and are still constructing with internals moulds, so excluding such an origin this way seems very odd. Someone who's a good maker and/or restorer isn't necessarily also well informed about identifying regional stylistics.

An internal mould isn't pointing eclusively to Italy, where they used a lot of different construction methods, internal mould in Cremona, built on the back in Brescia, Milano or Naples, with channels in Piedmont and a lot more. 

This all sounds a bit as if there's a lot of confusion going on. 

I gave you some clues to check the internal construction, that's all I can add. Without knowing these in detail there's not much to tell further. As I said, a lot of features, including the purfling sitting halfway up at high rounded edgework, short deep channeling there, position of the ff with widely outward swungen lower wings, lower rib passed with a purfling stripe and more are clearly setting this violin into a Vogtlandish tradition in my eyes. If you're saying the linings are inserted into assymetrical corner blocks, one could look into some of the smaller South German building areas, which occasionally could show a mixture between both styles.

Yes i noticed the confusion, im not an expert, I dont really know much about old instruments so if I use any words incorrectly im sorry and it's on me. For context : my luthier didn't explicitly state its an italian violin. He did say that its been made with an internal mould, that the edge work and internals look different than vogtland violins, he said it's not a masters instrument but could be italian made but was not sure. He valued the violin at around 2k€. Based on his observations and its sound and as an unknown maker's work. So im not trying to devalue anyone's opinion and based on your arguments i see that you're professionals but i find it hard to believe that my luthier turned out to be wrong and that he didnt notice it had been tampered with sometime in its life to add the fluting. Old instruments are a regular at his shop he was even telling me of a time he had an Andrea Amati one at his place... Also vogtlandish instruments are incredibly common here in Slovenia as people just have these at home in their attic or something. This is why im pretty certain that he would recognise one quite quickly.

I will post more photos and try to capture more details if anyone wants to take a second look (:

I dont mind it being a german violin, i know they made some good instruments, i just want to be sure where it came from and its approximate age. I don't think I'll ever get to know WHO made it for sure 

[Violadamore]

21 hours ago, Tinseka said:

Yes i noticed the confusion,..............Old instruments are a regular at his shop he was even telling me of a time he had an Andrea Amati one at his place... Also vogtlandish instruments are incredibly common here in Slovenia as people just have these at home in their attic or something. This is why im pretty certain that he would recognise one quite quickly................i just want to be sure where it came from and its approximate age. I don't think I'll ever get to know WHO made it for sure 

[Emphasis in quote above mine]. 

Oh, dear!  Slovenia!  Things just got incredibly complicated.  No wonder we've shown some confusion.   https://www.mikegravel.org/was-slovenia-ever-part-of-italy/  You could drive to Cremona or Vienna nowadays as a day trip.  I didn't expect this final twist in the story. The possibilities for stylistic cross-pollination just became very high.   

IMHO, given the location and colorful history of your beautiful homeland, there's no reason why an 80-100 year old violin found there couldn't show all of the characteristics we've been debating about, and no reason why it could not have been made locally and show all of those characteristics, as well as have been made locally within the time period given, and technically considered Italian to begin with, by some historians.    Also, given your location's historical trade with its neighbors, it could have come from any one of them, after a comparatively short journey.  It also could have been made by a luthier who'd traveled extensively in his formative years, picking up ideas as he went.  At that point, lacking documentary evidence, I feel that your violin's origins will remain somewhat mysterious.

Just curiosity, did you ever study violin at the Gimnazija Kranj?

@Blank face, I suggest that we both pick up our references and go find an easier Gordian knot to detangle.  This one might be beyond the powers of anyone on the forum.  

 

[Tinseka]

2 hours ago, Violadamore said:

[Emphasis in quote above mine]. 

Oh, dear!  Slovenia!  Things just got incredibly complicated.    https://www.mikegravel.org/was-slovenia-ever-part-of-italy/

IMHO, given the location and colorful history of your beautiful homeland, there's no reason why an 80-100 year old violin found there couldn't show all of the characteristics we've been debating about, and no reason why it could not have been made locally and show all of those characteristics, as well as have been made locally within the time period given, and technically considered Italian to begin with.  

 

Yes you are indeed correct!

A good example would be the composer and violinist Giuseppe Tartini himself (Devil's trill sonata). He was italian and is considered italian but was born and grew up in what is slovene speaking territory. But you have to consider we were also under german rule and trade was of course very important for this region...

If the historical borders even have any relation to the instruments to begin with as they were sold all over the world...

No i have not i actually gone to Kranj as I come from the carinthia area and i went to a local music school (: Thankfully the local luthier is pretty good (the one who worked on my violin) if the name Pavel Skaza rings a bell? 

Well i would love to know where it came from and who made it but im guessing its a tough cookie this one 

I'll call up my luthier and ask him for more info if he remembers anything important...

Edited July 13 by Tinseka

[Blank face]

3 hours ago, Violadamore said:

This one might be beyond the powers of anyone on the forum.  

Surely not.

It would be a starting point to see/know more about the internal construction/cornerblockology to find out more about what it is (as I asked several times before). Anyway a two thousand Euro valuation seems to be a wide stretch for and unknown maker's instrument with that bottom post crack and the desperate appearance of the belly, leaving out if the varnish was altered (it is IMO) and anything else.