Joha (Hammerl) liqud color extracts

[Don Noon]

I might be getting closer to actually doing stuff after a several-year break.  One thing (among many) that I don't feel confident about is varnish color.  I have put in a ton of time (a while ago) with madder rosinates, and came up with one that I like... but haven't actually used it on a violin yet.  And it's just one color; I'm not sure it's what I want on everything.  I also have played around with varnish enough to find one that I like.  The open question is:  what can be added to my oil varnish (along with my rosinate) to get various transparent colors?  

Joha seems to be the main one out there supplying color extracts (Yes, Joe, I know you're there).  Before I go that route, I'd like to hear the experience of others who have tried it. 

In searching MN history, it seems as if there's some complaint about the color not being intense enough, and colors not ending up like their description (like red-brown gives an orange violin).  If possible, please give info on:

1. Intensity
2. Transparency
3. Permanence
4. Color preferences, how they actually look vs. how they are labeled

Comments about Joe's colorants are also welcome.

[Nick Lewis]

I’m coming from a retouch perspective, so it might be different. I started with using the color extracts because they were relatively cheap and already in violin colors, and I didn’t have any experience mixing my own colors. Hard to get any good intensity with them. I also used them on my first fiddle build and it just looked washed out. That was also for lots of other reasons, too, such as not tanning the wood. You live and learn…

I also made my own madder lake and weld lake. I like knowing exactly what goes into my varnish, rather than proprietary formulations, but I don’t do it enough to have consistency between batches. Probably fine for new making but not for retouch.

I just picked up some orasol dyes that come pretty highly recommended on other threads here. They arrived on Friday so no experience yet, I’ll report back. I don’t build violins any more but focus on Hardanger fiddles, so the transparency to be able to see the decorative rosing is important. So depending on how those work out, I may mix up my own colors for new builds. I had good success with making rosinates for transparency and lightfastness. The Michelman book has lots of formulations for various colors of rosinates.

That’s my limited experience, so much to learn and not enough lifetimes. 

[lorenzo fossati]

I like joha colours, they come in very basic hues so some experimentation with different combinations I think is required, to get your desired tone, one thing I suggest, is to add the colours just for the instrument's batch, and do not leave them in the shelf for long time, or at least filter them if this is the case, because I think they tend to agglomerate into little particles, in the long run

[Sean Couch]

I used the Joha colorants on violin #1. I used the red-brown. The violin did have a bit of a tan from fluorescent UV bulbs and the varnish had a little bit of color for being cooked down to a 24% reduction.

For the second violin, I didn’t use any extra colorant, just what I had from cooking the rosin down to a 52% reduction in weight. I don’t think It got much color from the UV cabinet even though it was exposed for nearly 400 hours, so most of the color is in the varnish.

For violin #3, I used sodium nitrite and black tea stain to give it some color before applying the varnish. I used Transtint dyes, instead of Joha, to color the varnish. It is the same varnish that I used on #2. I used dark walnut and bright red from Transtint.

All of the varnish that I have used is what I made myself. It is a 1:1 mix of washed linseed oil and cooked pine rosin with 5% Greek Mastic. I also used turpentine in the cook and to thin the varnish for brushing.

For the Joha reddish-brown, I think they recommended 5% max. I ended up using 7% and it still didn’t have much color. The color was more orange than red-brown. The transparency seems fine and the varnish cured the same as without adding any colorant.

For my third, I used Transtint dyes. I had read on the internet that it is not recommend to use it in an oil varnish. I’m not sure why, or what their definition of oil varnish is, but a local luthier said that he had used it in his oil varnish and had no issue, so I decided to give it a try. It seemed to be fine and the varnish cured without issue. I ended up using about 24 drops in about 25ml of varnish… so about 3%, if my math is right. It had much more intensity than the Joha colorant. I didn’t see any problems with transparency.

Below are my three violins. The first is on the left, and the third is on the right. The second violin is the 52% varnish with no extra colors added. I am going to run some tests with using the Transtint dyes to stain the wood and stop wasting time by messing around with trying to tan the violin. I prefer the Transtint dye over the Joha because of the color intensity and accuracy of the colors.

[catnip]

Many years ago I had a bad experience when I added Joha dark brown color extract to Joha brown oil varnish.  I wanted to darken the top to color match the back.  I found that this mixture actually bled through the two clear coats of oil varnish and stained the top.  I had to strip the top and start over.  In my early days I switched over to just adding transparent artistic oil paint (tubes) to my Joha oil varnish with no problems.  Because the dark added oil mixture  (glaze) will not spread evenly with a brush it must be hand padded to even out the color.  The only draw back of adding color like this is it tends to obscure the grain. I do not use this method any more because it obscures the grain and the flame

[Will Turner]

I have used several of these.   The red brown did result in orange violins.

Now I use the Joha clear varnishes only.

No varnish pigments were used.

I did use oil pints mixed with liquin for the decoration between my double purfling.

The color is a combination of my nitrate/oak gall tannins formula , UV in the sun and the Lupot”s dichromatic stain Michael R Molnar developed (see his VSA paper) put on and the wiped to antique the appearance.  Between the stain and the Joha clear with pumice is @Davide Sora‘s turpentine/mastic and pumice mixture as a refractive ground.  Final varnish  oats were three thin coats of the Joha clear.

The flames are red then a golden yellow as the instrument moves.

Photo's a little dark, here's the flight of the bumblebee when the wind picked up.  

 

[joerobson]

On 6/14/2026 at 9:58 AM, Don Noon said:

I might be getting closer to actually doing stuff after a several-year break.  One thing (among many) that I don't feel confident about is varnish color.  I have put in a ton of time (a while ago) with madder rosinates, and came up with one that I like... but haven't actually used it on a violin yet.  And it's just one color; I'm not sure it's what I want on everything.  I also have played around with varnish enough to find one that I like.  The open question is:  what can be added to my oil varnish (along with my rosinate) to get various transparent colors?  

Joha seems to be the main one out there supplying color extracts (Yes, Joe, I know you're there).  Before I go that route, I'd like to hear the experience of others who have tried it. 

In searching MN history, it seems as if there's some complaint about the color not being intense enough, and colors not ending up like their description (like red-brown gives an orange violin).  If possible, please give info on:

1. Intensity
2. Transparency
3. Permanence
4. Color preferences, how they actually look vs. how they are labeled

Comments about Joe's colorants are also welcome.

Don't,

The Alizarin Color Concentrate Varnishes match your list and in combination will produce the variety of colors madder root is capable of....and this is info....not an ad...glad to know you are back at the  bench. 

on we go,

Joe

[MANFIO]

I have been using pigments made in Italy by FANTUZZI, they are easy to incorporate to oil varnish, can be combined. https://www.cremonatools.com/fantuzzi-100-natural-dry-pigments.html

[Deo Lawson]

I'm sure you all know this, but color extracts are fugitive in oil. Because of the solvent they can also dissolve the lower layers of varnish.

Have a look on Jackson's Art supply. I purchased all of my pigments from them in powder form and they work wonderfully. to save you the time of researching which ones work in oil, here are some of my favorites: 

Azo Red PR144 (bit intense but works well in small concentrations)

Gold Ochre PY43

Cyprus Burnt Umber PBr7

And asphaltum / gilsonite is wonderful for darkening any varnish.

In the 21st century we have access to so many pure and transparent pigments, there is (in my opinion) no practical reason to futz with finnicky and fugitive colours.

[Don Noon]

3 hours ago, Deo Lawson said:

Azo Red PR144 (bit intense but works well in small concentrations)

Gold Ochre PY43

Cyprus Burnt Umber PBr7

And asphaltum / gilsonite is wonderful for darkening any varnish.

Those pigments are all listed as "semi-transparent", which might be OK for artists, but not what I'm looking for in violin colorants.  I have tried a huge pile of similar pigments, and not found the transparency I want... thus the long excursion into the Michelman rosinates.  I have found them to be quite transparent, but the colors are restricted, and that's why I started this thread.

Gilsonite is something I've been using for a while now, reasonably transparent at modest concentrations.  It tends to look muddy when trying for more intense brown.

[lorenzo fossati]

5 hours ago, Don Noon said:

Those pigments are all listed as "semi-transparent", which might be OK for artists, but not what I'm looking for in violin colorants.  I have tried a huge pile of similar pigments, and not found the transparency I want... thus the long excursion into the Michelman rosinates.  I have found them to be quite transparent, but the colors are restricted, and that's why I started this thread.

Gilsonite is something I've been using for a while now, reasonably transparent at modest concentrations.  It tends to look muddy when trying for more intense brown.

What about oldwood pigments, or the brand Manfio suggested? those should be very transparent, drawback I think they are not so cheap!

https://oldwood1700.com/products/natural-oil-colours/antique-brown-black/

[Don Noon]

4 hours ago, lorenzo fossati said:

What about oldwood pigments, or the brand Manfio suggested? those should be very transparent, drawback I think they are not so cheap!

They are all pigments, and I just threw out a large box of what I have collected from trying to chase down a satisfactorally transparent pigment.  I haven't tried everything out there, but don't see anything that makes me want to continue that route at the moment.

If the Joha colors can survive in a drying oil and UV exposure, that would be nice.

[Deo Lawson]

I haven't had any issues with transparency with these colours. They have to be mulled very thoroughly.

 

I've only ever tried the JOHA red and there was significant fading in sunlight.

[Don Noon]

14 minutes ago, Deo Lawson said:

I haven't had any issues with transparency with these colours. They have to be mulled very thoroughly.

Can you post images of your results?

[Nick Lewis]

10 hours ago, Don Noon said:

Michelman rosinates.  I have found them to be quite transparent, but the colors are restricted

I made all of his recipes, then would mix and match the colors. Thinking back, I’m not sure how compatible they all are in theory since they use different metals, but practically no issues I’ve noticed 6 years on since I started. 

[catnip]

15 hours ago, Deo Lawson said:

Because of the solvent they can also dissolve the lower layers of varnish.

This was my experience with the dark brown extract.  I have a whole standard set of dry pigments that I have tried and all the siennas etc ... do work but the obscure the grain.  Now I only use dry pigments with eucalyptus oil to lightly color stain the neck.   I use FxColor dyes (water soluble) but only as a light stain before varnishing.

[Deo Lawson]

1 hour ago, Don Noon said:

Can you post images of your results?

This is the latest work. It's still wet and unpolished, I just took it out the drying box for a moment to snap a photo. This is mostly yellow ochre and asphaltum and a bit of burnt umber. I'd take close ups of my more "cremonese red" violins from before, but that they've been sold already.

there's three layers of coloured varnish on here and one clear-ish.

[lorenzo fossati]

I made a quick lightfastness test:

Joha red extract (raw and mixed in oil varnish, little bit of siccativ)

Milesi Yellow (raw and mixed in oil varnish, little bit of siccativ)

Milesi ancient walnut (raw and mixed in oil varnish, little bit of siccativ)

Turmeric (as comparison, since it fades almost instantly, not turmeric but curry mix, to be exact)

Right after application:

 

 

 

After 24 hours in UV chamber (uppper part covered with 2 layers of dark tape, right side on the pic, it did not save the rotation)

[Don Noon]

I don't have my Joha colors yet, but I'm getting the sample wood ready.  Torrefied maple, with terpene ground.  Dang, maybe I should just stop here...

 

 

[lorenzo fossati]

Nice gold 

[Don Noon]

The Joha colors (yellow, red, and dark brown) arrived, and testing is under way.  So far, the transparency and intensity are fine, much stronger than the alizarin rosinate I made (the highest useful alizarin concentration of the Michelman resins).

If Joha survives varnish drying and UV, I think the Joha red (which is somewhat on the orange side) would be a good adjustment to the rosinate, which is somewhat on the purple side.  I'll post photos when I'm done.

[Don Noon]

After 2 days in the So Cal Summer Solstice sun (intense), there's definitely some fading of all Joha colors, as well as the alizarin rosinate, too.  The sample kept in the dark is still fairly tacky, but not wet.  A few more days and I'll wrap this up and show the photos.

[David Alex Tricot]

I made 3 celli with joha. The varnish was nice enough for me but I was not satisfied with the color. Even the deapest Dark Brown fade to an orange color.

[Nick Lewis]

On 6/23/2026 at 5:39 PM, Don Noon said:

So Cal Summer Solstice sun (intense)

I just set up a lightfast test...but I'm working with PNW June-uary (lack of) sun. 

[M Alpert]

On 6/19/2026 at 4:27 PM, Don Noon said:

I don't have my Joha colors yet, but I'm getting the sample wood ready.  Torrefied maple, with terpene ground.  Dang, maybe I should just stop here...

 

 

Don, that's a beautiful gold. 

By far the best results I have had making intense transparent color were with "Flavetta's method", discussed in this thread (among other topics):

 

I have understood that it is a zinc alizarin rosinate made during the cook... Beautiful color which lasted many days in our UV box without fading, a year later still as intense.