Neck Resonance

[A432]

What would be the likely result of re-shaping a normal round-ish neck to a Hill-style neck (rounded triangle) re response and tone ?

Answer from real world experience please -- not theory.

[HoGo]

MY real world experience is from (archtop) mandolins so it may be slightly different from violins...

I always do final shaping on white instrument with strings tuned soI can play and feel the shape of neck in real action. I found that reshaping the main "shaft" of neck doesn't do much if anything at all (while sytaying within physical stiffness of healthy neck) but I noticed in few cases that reshaping of the heel curve (deepening it just slightly) made some difference especially in case when there was more wood than necessary and reshaping it more to "normal" so player can reach up the neck with thumb hooked at heel comfortably. In these cases the tone "opened" a bit. It's hard to describe but perhaps better response and richer tone was the result.

[FiddleDoug]

Not from personal experience, but you have to remember that any measured resonance in the neck is going to be affected by the player's hand holding, and moving to different places on the neck while playing.

[Mark Norfleet]

I've no doubt there's a difference, but I have never had it be a significant negative impact.  I suspect having an instrument which is more comfortable to play is more important than any sound differences that occur as a result of reshaping a neck.

And..., what Doug said!

 

[Jeffrey Holmes]

8 hours ago, Mark Norfleet said:

I've no doubt there's a difference, but I have never had it be a significant negative impact.  I suspect having an instrument which is more comfortable to play is more important than any sound differences that occur as a result of reshaping a neck.

And..., what Doug said!

 

 

9 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

you have to remember that any measured resonance in the neck is going to be affected by the player's hand holding, and moving to different places on the neck while playing.

I agree with what Mark and Doug said!

[Altgeiger]

10 hours ago, Mark Norfleet said:

And..., what Doug said!

 

2 hours ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

I agree with what Mark and Doug said!

So you agree with Mark once and Doug twice.

[Mark Norfleet]

1 hour ago, Altgeiger said:

 

So you agree with Mark once and Doug twice.

Some necks should be wrung…

 

[Altgeiger]

8 minutes ago, Mark Norfleet said:

Some necks should be wrung…

 

But what would be the effect on my tone?

[Mark Norfleet]

2 minutes ago, Altgeiger said:

But what would be the effect on my tone?

That would obviously depend on the skill, experience and dedication of the person doing the work.

[A432]

So minute changes in the bridge thickness produce noticeable changes in response and voice, but the mass, stiffness &c of the neck are irrelevant? 

In theory, the hand on the neck alters sound. In theory, same for an accoustic guitar . . .

[FiddleDoug]

"So minute changes in the bridge thickness produce noticeable changes in response and voice, but the mass, stiffness &c of the neck are irrelevwnt? "

That's kind of it. Also, the size and shape of the neck affect the playability of the fiddle more than the sound. Also mass and stiffness can be different than the size and shape. You're welcome to experiment with all of those variables and report back to us.

[Don Noon]

11 hours ago, A432 said:

So minute changes in the bridge thickness produce noticeable changes in response and voice, but the mass, stiffness &c of the neck are irrelevant? 

In theory, the hand on the neck alters sound. In theory, same for an accoustic guitar . . .

The bridge is directly in the path of vibration from the string to the body, so it is extremely sensitive to mass.

The neck (and fingerboard and scroll) are relatively very heavy, and therefore don't tend to vibrate much.  The scroll is not just there for looks, but provides a mass to keep neck vibration frequency low... (tune out now if you don't want theory)... so that the main neck mode is below the playing range (therefore not excited) and the next mode frequncy is low on the G string where it doesn't do much, regardless of a hand being on the neck or not.

Anyway, in practical experience (yes, I have some) and supported by theory, thinning out the neck won't do much for tone.  A guitar might be completely different, as the neck is much longer and the playing range gets an octave lower than the violin.

[Michael Darnton]

Bob Bein had a nice take on this kind of thing, basically "Change has effect." Whether you personally can hear it, whether it matters: those are open questions for every situation.

[A432]

Thanks to all for their perspectives on this.

I keep getting timed out when I write long, detailed posts, so short bites:

I (incorrectly) assumed the neck/hand business would be viewed from an empirical perspective. It wasn't. Very possibly operator error on this end.

Stop by a music store. Strum a guitar on the rack. Then do it again, same way, with your hand holding the neck as if playing it. If you hear a difference, do a blindfolded A/B test with a friend. If it turns out you really can, I'd want you as a tonal consultant.

If you can't, then I think the much smaller violin neck would be even less affected.

edits: typos

[A432]

Soldiering on here.

Continuing with real, experienced world bottom line/focus, only using abstraction to elucidate perceived outcomes:

When a gymnast comes down on a trampoline, the frame bends inward. Followed by it springing back to its un-stressed configuration. And the weaker the frame, the more extreme the pull/release swing.

Same deal with a violin neck, only the string is rotating around its axis (easily visible) -- circular rather than in/out, but analogous. So no matter how trivial it seems, it's there, and an integral part of the experiential gestalt. And the thinner the neck, the wider the oscilation.

PS: the scrolls of many old violins are excessively worn away from having been pressed against wooden tables, which amplify the volume (vibrations) they produce (through the neck) You can't get away from it.

[LCF]

23 hours ago, Altgeiger said:

But what would be the effect on my tone?

It would become strangled. 

[A432]

Now into the Twilight Zone.

If the resonance of the bow were not a factor, carbon fibre bows would have consigned pernambucco bows to museums. But the right bow can dramatically improve a violin's voice. Not every violin, and for sure not every bow. But the right Tourte/Persoit/Kittel can make a (potentially) great Strad (&c.) come alive. However counterintuitive, this is common knowledge among those who make their livings with them. 

One of the disappointments that galled Heifetz throughout his life was that he could never convince Louis Krasner to part with his legendary Tourte. It frustrated him to no end.

Now the bow involved is vibrating/resonating in phase with the fiddle,, amplifying its tonal coherence despite having to do that through the hair, which is relatively inert. 

Change bows and the magic disappears. 

[Hippolytus Huffmaker]

Heifetz also coveted beyond measure Krasner's watch, a Submariner presented to him by the state of Arizona.  I can't blame him.

[Mark Norfleet]

3 hours ago, A432 said:

Now the bow involved is vibrating/resonating in phase with the fiddle,,

How do you know that it is vibrating in phase, out phase or at a certain harmonic relative to a note being played?

Surely it cannot be doing so at more than a few pitches.

“Welcome to a dimension not only of sight and sound, but of mind.  A journey into a wondrous land of imagination.“

[A432]

In other words, since it cannot be modelsd using dialectical materialist axioms, it cannot be real. Even though everyone hears it. 

[ctanzio]

Dialectical doesn't mean what you think it means in that sentence. We CAN compare two opposing ideas (your feelings versus engineering principals successfully applied for decades) and realize there is a problem with your claims.

Of course the natural harmonics of the bow are important as anyone can attest who ever attempted flying staccato or spiccato. It is also obvious that the bow hairs are not "relatively inert". They form an intricate part of the dynamic system with the stick.

As Michael Darnton pointed out, change causes effect. People are simply pointing out that the effect is not worth worrying about.

[A432]

Clarification: Engineering principles successfully applied in other areas, where they are actually useful.

Here they are not. If they were, Mrr. Noon's measurements and calculations would have solved the Cremonese vs. ordinary problem once and for all.

And their antithesis is not my feelings. It is directly perceived phenomena.

[Don Noon]

7 minutes ago, A432 said:

Mr. Noon's measurements and calculations would have solved the Cremonese vs. ordinary problem once and for all.

Maybe the problem HAS been solved... but won't become apparent for another 300 years .

[A432]

Clarification: Engineering principles successfully applied in other areas, where they are actually useful.

Here they are not. If they were, Mrr. Noon's measurements and calculations would have solved the Cremonese vs. ordinary problem once and for all.

And their antithesis is not my feelings. It is directly perceived phenomena.

[A432]

Don: they used baked wood?