broken pegbox

[dabenza]

Hi guys, I just received a broken 3/4 violin from a friend's son. knowing the kid, the fiddle survived quite long, but the pegbox just broke badly finally. It could be the end of it, but I feel like I want to try to repair. What I feel is that it did not break alongside, but vertically, leaving very little surface for the gluing to be enough. 

What I saw on the forum was usually cracks along the horizontal line, so glueing was enough. The only positive thing is that the peg holes are unharmed. 

If I can beg for your kind wisdom, I'll be happy to listen. 

Thanks!

[Nick Lewis]

How familiar are you with repair in general? Are you familiar with using hot hide glue? I'd use that to glue it, put it on then hold the break with my hands for about a minute before putting it aside for a day. I've tried all types of clamping mechanisms that are mentioned on various threads here, and nothing beats my "sandwich clamps" (hands) for perfect alignment. Next day, remove the nut, take 2 dowels about 1/8", drill in under the nut making sure you don't drill through or do anything that would show on the outside. Angle them towards each other so they look like a V coming out the top, where the bottom tip of the V would meet under where the break is at. Glue those dowels in, trim them flush with a flush cut saw and chisel, and glue the nut back on.

That's what I just did on a student instrument a few days ago, curious what other people would do. 

[Deo Lawson]

I too am a fan of pins when the instrument doesn't justify the effort of more complex jointery. 

[Hippolytus Huffmaker]

It can definitely be made serviceable.  I have one with the same break and somebody just slapped it together with epoxy, maybe even thick superglue, without even lining it up.  It's had string tension on it for maybe 10 yrs now without moving

[dabenza]

7 hours ago, Nick Lewis said:

How familiar are you with repair in general? Are you familiar with using hot hide glue? I'd use that to glue it, put it on then hold the break with my hands for about a minute before putting it aside for a day. I've tried all types of clamping mechanisms that are mentioned on various threads here, and nothing beats my "sandwich clamps" (hands) for perfect alignment. Next day, remove the nut, take 2 dowels about 1/8", drill in under the nut making sure you don't drill through or do anything that would show on the outside. Angle them towards each other so they look like a V coming out the top, where the bottom tip of the V would meet under where the break is at. Glue those dowels in, trim them flush with a flush cut saw and chisel, and glue the nut back on.

That's what I just did on a student instrument a few days ago, curious what other people would do. 

Hi Nick, i have little experience on repairing. I just did repair a couple of cracks on tops. I'm basically an amateur builder. But your solution seems to be factible. For the dowels, shall I use maple or would you recommend another wood?

Thanks!

[Don Noon]

For a cheap 3/4, I'd be tempted to just glue it with strong hide glue.  That's all I did with the pegbox oopsie shown here, before and after, although I had to do some clamping of the thinner areas.

[Riccardo964]

I know the idea of using hide glue is like a tenet of the violin making religion, however, if there's no need for reversibility, ie, the need for removing plates or pieces for maintenance, I don't see why not use a strong PVA glue for this job here.

Could someone enlighten me on this topic?

THanks a million,

Riccardo964

[dabenza]

24 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

For a cheap 3/4, I'd be tempted to just glue it with strong hide glue.  That's all I did with the pegbox oopsie shown here, before and after, although I had to do some clamping of the thinner areas.

Hi Don, thanks for the reply. In my case it looks as if glue just won't hold the amount of tension, as the crack is right on the shoulder and completely vertical. The idea of dowels coming from top seems to be the right thing to do.

 

[Marty Kasprzyk]

6 hours ago, Don Noon said:

For a cheap 3/4, I'd be tempted to just glue it with strong hide glue.  That's all I did with the pegbox oopsie shown here, before and after, although I had to do some clamping of the thinner areas.

That's a good example of the Broke Period violin design.

[Blank face]

Even superglue and dowels might fail and would definitely leave a bigger mess than actually is, so I would always give strong superglue, just pressed together by hands for a minute or so (or do the „twenty elephants trick) a try. I guess in 9 out of ten cases it will be enough.

[Don Noon]

8 hours ago, Riccardo964 said:

I know the idea of using hide glue is like a tenet of the violin making religion, however, if there's no need for reversibility, ie, the need for removing plates or pieces for maintenance, I don't see why not use a strong PVA glue for this job here.

Hide glue doesn't creep under load; PVA does.  Decades ago I found that out when a PVA neck re-glue self-reversed, slowly.  Maybe there are some modern versions that are better, and epoxy, but that's for someone else to experiment with.

8 hours ago, dabenza said:

Hi Don, thanks for the reply. In my case it looks as if glue just won't hold the amount of tension, as the crack is right on the shoulder and completely vertical. The idea of dowels coming from top seems to be the right thing to do.

The "tension" is actually compression on the shoulder; the larger heel portion is in tension.  My guess is that it would work just with a strong hide glue, but if you can get a dowel in the treble side shoulder, that would be safer.  My guess is also that the break didn't come from string tension, but from a traumatic whack from some other direction.

[Nick Lewis]

14 hours ago, Mansfield Piggot said:

lapped it together with epoxy, maybe even thick superglue

 

8 hours ago, Riccardo964 said:

I don't see why not use a strong PVA glue for this job here.

I don’t have any problem with irreversible glues on student instruments for things that you don’t want to reverse, and have used it on things like rib cracks on cellos. But pva or epoxy require clamping, since my sandwich clamps would get tired after 5 minutes.  The reason I recommend hide glue is the 20 elephant trick, and my theory is that a good joint is more important than the glue used. I get the best joint with hide glue and holding with my hands.

[Nick Lewis]

9 hours ago, dabenza said:

For the dowels, shall I use maple or would you recommend another wood?

Um…I used bamboo skewers, because that’s what I had convenient. Shhhh. I don’t know how/if type of wood affects it, the importance to me was getting something reinforcing the crack that is strong in a different direction. But it’s completely hidden. I know carbon fiber rods are in vogue right now. 
 

A cool trick if you happen to have something that will show is to use a tapered peg instead of a cylindrical one, like a peg in a peg hole. It’s far easier to get a perfect fit of a tapered peg in a matching taper hole than it is a normal cylinder into a cylindrical hole. 

[Violadamore]

When all else fails, replace the entire neck, using a high weight hide glue.  

For example:  https://www.metmusic.com/tonewoods/gleissner/necks-carved/2600t-violin-neck--carved-plain-34

[Jay Higgs]

3 hours ago, Blank face said:

or do the „twenty elephants trick

 

1 hour ago, Nick Lewis said:

The reason I recommend hide glue is the 20 elephant trick,

I felt silly not knowing the "20 elephants trick," so of course I reverted to AI.  According to AI, you guys are way off ; it's 21 elephants;  "In 1884, P.T. Barnum marched 21 elephants (including Jumbo) across the newly built Brooklyn Bridge to prove its strength and calm public fears of it collapsing. This is often cited as a metaphor for proving the "structural integrity" or "glue" (strength) of a structure."  

So now I get it:  If Don is correct, and the trauma was something under normal string tension, and if you are correct that the stress on the joint will not tend to pull it apart anyway, then a simple glue joint will hold it OK for normal playing.  However, given the history of this student's violin, I would be tempted to reinforce it against whatever happened to it in the first place.  

 

[dabenza]

1 hour ago, Don Noon said:

Hide glue doesn't creep under load; PVA does.  Decades ago I found that out when a PVA neck re-glue self-reversed, slowly.  Maybe there are some modern versions that are better, and epoxy, but that's for someone else to experiment with.

The "tension" is actually compression on the shoulder; the larger heel portion is in tension.  My guess is that it would work just with a strong hide glue, but if you can get a dowel in the treble side shoulder, that would be safer.  My guess is also that the break didn't come from string tension, but from a traumatic whack from some other direction.

Exactly, it fell on the floor. Kid's hands, uncivilized and terrorizing. I think I might go for the hide glue and see for the dowels, might be able to do so. Will keep you posted, but I need some guaranties that my end result will not be highly criticized. I'm no professional repairer.

[David Burgess]

40 minutes ago, Jay Higgs said:

I felt silly not knowing the "20 elephants trick,"

In the US, we use  "one thousand one, one thousand two, one thousand three...." 

[David Burgess]

10 hours ago, Riccardo964 said:

I know the idea of using hide glue is like a tenet of the violin making religion, however, if there's no need for reversibility, ie, the need for removing plates or pieces for maintenance, I don't see why not use a strong PVA glue for this job here.

Could someone enlighten me on this topic?

THanks a million,

Riccardo964

I will second Don's answer below:
"Hide glue doesn't creep under load; PVA does."

[Don Noon]

My pet peeve is batteries (or other thiings) with spring loading in thin plastic housings.  I can't remember how many of them have had their housings crack of break due to creep, alhough a few weeks ago I definitely recall having to replace a Foredom foot switch that self-destructed that way.  PVA is a plastic.  Epoxy is a plastic too, but I'm not sure how it compares to PVA.

[Blank face]

22 hours ago, Jay Higgs said:

 

I felt silly not knowing the "20 elephants trick," so of course I reverted to AI.  According to AI, you guys are way off ; it's 21 elephants;  "In 1884, P.T. Barnum marched 21 elephants (including Jumbo) across the newly built Brooklyn Bridge to prove its strength and calm public fears of it collapsing. This is often cited as a metaphor for proving the "structural integrity" or "glue" (strength) of a structure."  

So now I get it:  If Don is correct, and the trauma was something under normal string tension, and if you are correct that the stress on the joint will not tend to pull it apart anyway, then a simple glue joint will hold it OK for normal playing.  However, given the history of this student's violin, I would be tempted to reinforce it against whatever happened to it in the first place.  

 

AI has it wrong, because it doesn’t get the context right (as usual). Counting slow elephants marching from one to twenty (each number just one step) you’ll get three seconds counted 20 times, exactly one minute. Though the 21 elephant won’t make much of a difference. No idea why Barnum took that number, possibly just to show how many animals he managed to hijack?

[Jay Higgs]

Dang!  Now I feel silly again.  

 

[Riccardo964]

On 5/5/2026 at 4:42 PM, David Burgess said:

I will second Don's answer below:
"Hide glue doesn't creep under load; PVA does."

Thanks!

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

AI Overview (Gemini)
That statement is a widely accepted truism in traditional woodworking and musical instrument repair.
Here is a breakdown of why this is considered true:

• Hide Glue (Rigid): Hide glue cures to a hard, brittle, crystalline state. Under long-term load (like a guitar bridge under string tension or a chair joint), it does not stretch or flow. This makes it ideal for high-tension joints.
• PVA Glue (Plastic): Polyvinyl Acetate (PVA) glues - white and yellow wood glues - create a thermoplastic, rubbery joint that remains slightly flexible. Over time, heavy, constant loads can cause this plastic joint to "creep" or slowly move, leading to joint failure.
• Heat Resistance: Hide glue is also highly resistant to heat, whereas PVA joints can soften in hot environments (e.g., inside a car) and fail, leading to significant creep.
• Repairability: Unlike PVA, hide glue is reversible with heat and moisture, and new hide glue will stick to old hide glue, making it superior for restoration. 

While some modern, high-performance PVAs are better than older versions, for high-tension or antique repair work, hide glue is still considered superior due to its zero-creep properties. 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Cheerios,

Riccardo964

[Violadamore]

6 minutes ago, Riccardo964 said:

AI Overview (Gemini)...............................................

• Heat Resistance: Hide glue is also highly resistant to heat, ............................

 

It sure got that one wrong. 

[Riccardo964]

1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

It sure got that one wrong. 

are you saying it isn't trustworthy????? noooooooo (contains sarcasm)

cheerios

[HoGo]

2 hours ago, Violadamore said:

3 hours ago, Riccardo964 said:

AI Overview (Gemini)...............................................

• Heat Resistance: Hide glue is also highly resistant to heat, ............................

 

It sure got that one wrong. 

I don't think that one is completely wrong. Dry hide glue joints will survive quite a heat. Almost to burning temperatures of wood. The glue becomes brittle and wood mevement under such heat may loosen joints but not because the glue melts or decomposes.

I'd have problem with the repairability. I tested white glue and it WILL stick to dry white glue quite decently. With standard cleanup procedure before regluing, the repairs with white glues are similar to original white glue joints. That said, I still prefer HHG for the non-creep almost every time.

For the OP, I'd use nice strong HHG and clamp/hold till it catches. I can't see any good space for application of pins into the cheeks, they would be mostly under pressure. Pin may help if inserted from under nut (or under end of board) at slight angle close to the surface of "heel" of the pegbox to to hold tension opening the crack (similar to pins in viola/cello neck heels).