420-430mm viola E-string

[Altgeiger]

Hermann Ritter's five-string viola alta had a string length of between 420 and 430mm, and the top string was tuned to E. Could a gut string be tuned to E at that length? The first with five strings were built in about 1890, so steel is very unlikely but probably not absolutely impossible.

[Dwight Brown]

My teacher played on an 18 3/4" original Ritter (he is 6'7"!).  I didn't know there were 5 string instruments.  I would think the top E would have to be steel or perhaps silk?  The metallurgy of the 19th century had certainly progressed a great deal and steel able to stand up to the task should have been available. Chromium steel was being made by Krupp as early as 1840.

DLB

[deans]

I'm fairly sure the originals would have been gut. It would be quite thin and not last very long. I'm sure Gamut could tell you which thickness to try. 

On a side note it seems like a good week for Ritter violas. Three up at Tarisio and a Chinese one at Amati. All a bit smaller than the original model though.

[Altgeiger]

Gamut suggested .42mm, which is not even available, but another calculator said it couldn't hold up to the tension and would snap.  I would be surprised if a specialized steel string was available in 1890, since they really didn't become a commonly available thing until the early 20th century.  Ritter's book seems to assume a gut string based on his measure of .5-.6mm for the violin E-string.

4 hours ago, Dwight Brown said:

I didn't know there were 5 string instruments.

After about 1900 they were the main ones made.  There are a couple for sale in T2, but they've been converted to 4-strings; look at the pegbox walls.  I think the Keller one was probably made by/under Hörlein, by the look of it; Keller bought all Hörlein's stock, tools, etc. when he died in 1902.  What I'd like to know is 
 

2 hours ago, deans said:

Three up at Tarisio and a Chinese one at Amati.

I've been looking at those too.

[Dwight Brown]

I wonder if there might be some input from New violin family people?  Perhaps some cross pollination from guitar or other plucked instrument (Lute?) By the way you can see my teacher to the left of me in my picture here.  I imagine he is home cheering for his Fighting Hooziers today!  He was the starting quarterback in his days at IU

Just a thought.

DLB

[JacksonMaberry]

If you can find a copy of Mimmo Peruffo's book on gut strings, it contains formulae for calculating the appropriate gauge for a given VSL (vibrating string length). Mimmo is the founder and designer of Aquila Corde in Italy. I mostly make historical instruments and his strings are my favorite. 

If you can't make gut work, you can approximate the sound and feel of gut with the appropriate gauge of PEEK monofilament, lightly sanded with 600 grit paper to give the bow something to bite on. Multifilament is even closer to the gut sound, but difficult to source. 

[Altgeiger]

3 hours ago, Dwight Brown said:

By the way you can see my teacher to the left of me in my picture here.  I imagine he is home cheering for his Fighting Hooziers today!  He was the starting quarterback in his days at IU

 

I'm aware of your teacher — I hope he's still doing well.

3 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

If you can't make gut work, you can approximate the sound and feel of gut with the appropriate gauge of PEEK monofilament, lightly sanded with 600 grit paper to give the bow something to bite on. Multifilament is even closer to the gut sound, but difficult to source. 

I don't have one of the 5-string violas alta to mess with, though I wish I did.; I'm more concerned with what Ritter would have done, from a historical point of view.  I'll try to find Piruffo's book — thanks for the lead!

[MANFIO]

Gut string makers today can make special strings under commission. When I made a baroque viola I discussed strings with a string maker, he was very open about talking about his strings. 

[Marty Kasprzyk]

4 hours ago, Altgeiger said:

Gamut suggested .42mm, which is not even available, but another calculator said it couldn't hold up to the tension and would snap.  I would be surprised if a specialized steel string was available in 1890, since they really didn't become a commonly available thing until the early 20th century.  Ritter's book seems to assume a gut string based on his measure of .5-.6mm for the violin E-string.

After about 1900 they were the main ones made.  There are a couple for sale in T2, but they've been converted to 4-strings; look at the pegbox walls.  I think the Keller one was probably made by/under Hörlein, by the look of it; Keller bought all Hörlein's stock, tools, etc. when he died in 1902.  What I'd like to know is 
 

I've been looking at those too.

Maybe the old long string length 5 string viola originally used a low gut F string rather than a high E string which would probably break.

[Dwight Brown]

There is a viola playing David Holland student on facebook who plays a very large baroque viola. He also happens to no do a sideline as a gut string dealer. He might know something?

DLB

[deans]

43 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Maybe the old long string length 5 string viola originally used a low gut F string rather than a high E string which would probably break.

Ritter wanted a high e, as a solution for players who couldnt manage the upper positions of an 18+ inch viola. Wagner was one of his champions, and many players gave it a go. But obviously it didnt stick, and most of the 5 string instruments have been converted to 4 as we see on T2. 

[JacksonMaberry]

2 hours ago, Altgeiger said:

I'm aware of your teacher — I hope he's still doing well.

I don't have one of the 5-string violas alta to mess with, though I wish I did.; I'm more concerned with what Ritter would have done, from a historical point of view.  I'll try to find Piruffo's book — thanks for the lead!

Oh, ok I understand. So more of a musicological enquiry then. The book (more of a pamphlet, it's not long) can be bought from either Aquila Corde in Italy or from any of their licensed dealers, I believe. I've found it pretty useful.

[JacksonMaberry]

35 minutes ago, Dwight Brown said:

There is a viola playing David Holland student on facebook who plays a very large baroque viola. He also happens to no do a sideline as a gut string dealer. He might know something?

DLB

If he's using the one owned by the Jacobs Historical Performance institute, it's probably the one I made for them. They ordered four violins and two violas - one alto, one tenor. What's kind of fun is that they both have the same VSL, because I used the traditional tenor neck scaling, which you can see on the small handful of unbutchered Cremona (and Stainer) tenors. 

[Altgeiger]

1 hour ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Maybe the old long string length 5 string viola originally used a low gut F string rather than a high E string which would probably break.

Like deans above said, Ritter's book on the subject is pretty clear on it being a high E string, and his compositions and fingerings in his publications bear that out.  There are concert reviews of him and others playing the thing, so it must have worked somehow.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

19 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

If you can find a copy of Mimmo Peruffo's book on gut strings, it contains formulae for calculating the appropriate gauge for a given VSL (vibrating string length). Mimmo is the founder and designer of Aquila Corde in Italy. I mostly make historical instruments and his strings are my favorite. 

If you can't make gut work, you can approximate the sound and feel of gut with the appropriate gauge of PEEK monofilament, lightly sanded with 600 grit paper to give the bow something to bite on. Multifilament is even closer to the gut sound, but difficult to source. 

I agree, PEEK monofilament is the best way to go.

I made a large 5 string viola that had a 380mm string length and I used a steel D'Addario Helicore H415 medium viola E string.  It worked fine but I very much doubt it could be used with a longer 420mm string length without breakage problems.

 

[Deo Lawson]

In my opinion, there's a fat chance of any string surviving being tuned to E5 at 430mm. Although I would be less surprised by gut standing up to such abuse than steel. At least for a few minutes.

 

[Altgeiger]

4 hours ago, Deo Lawson said:

there's a fat chance of any string surviving being tuned to E5 at 430mm.

Nonetheless, it was done, both by Ritter and his students. Judging by the fingerings in surviving parts, I bet it was gut, or someone really liked the sound of an overtightened steel E.

[Deo Lawson]

It was probably gut.