Neck Overstand For Violin

[Evan Smith]

Is the neck over stand measured from the plate edge, or from the Perfling?

I have always heard the numbers of 6.5 to 7 mm, and I’ve also heard discussion of from the plate edge or from the purple.

I have personally done 6.5 from the plate edge for years and have never noticed a problem. However, upon considering this issue, I realize that depending upon the style of the plate, and which number you start with, there could be quite a large discrepancy in the final result.
 

Just looking for a little clarity here or some opinions.
 

Thanks, Evan

 

 

[Evan Smith]

Just a note here, I realize it’s all going to be in relationship to the total arching height of the top, so say what would it be with a 15 mm top arch, 16, 17, what is the relationship?

[Evan Smith]

Note No. two.
I realize the really only correct way to set the neck is using a 158 angle gauge, 27 mm projection to the bridge, along with the proposed saddle height, and that will cover the bases.

If a person makes the same models and same arching height over and over, you can use the same numbers over and over.

I’m just being lazy, tired, old and grumpy, and wondered if somebody had taken notes so I don’t have to dig out my angle gauge, I don’t take notes,,, so take note of that!

[The Violin Beautiful]

I always use the inner black portion of the purfling as my reference, as that is what I was taught when I first started resetting necks. 

[Mark Norfleet]

1 hour ago, Evan Smith said:

Just looking for a little clarity here or some opinions.

I don’t think you’re going to get clarity, opinions are pretty certain.

[Brad Dorsey]

5 hours ago, Evan Smith said:

Is the neck over stand measured from the plate edge, or from the [purfling]?...

I asked Hans Nebel the same question once.  He didn't give a definite answer.  From this, I concluded that it probably doesn't make much difference how you measure it.

[Violadamore]

5 hours ago, Evan Smith said:

Is the neck over stand measured from the plate edge, or from the Perfling?

The usual recommendation given to students, (e.g., @Michael Darnton in his violin making book excerpts) is the plate edge, and you'll see that in various places around the 'Net.  What our pack of experienced yahoos is actually doing is anyone's guess.     I suspect that the degree to which individual makers let the neck overlap the top influences where they measure.  

[David Burgess]

I was taught to measure from the plate edge, the reason being that one purpose for the overstand is to have the fingerboard sufficiently higher than the plate edge to make it easier to to get the hand over the plate edge when playing in higher positions. (the distance between the purfling and the fingerboard isn't a factor for this, because the player doesn't use the purfling or the scoop as any sort of reference point during playing, but does use the edge)

Same thing on cello, except it is more the forearm against the top edge than the hand that is involved.

On a high arch, I'd say it depends on the shape of the arch. If the shape is extremely saddle-back, the over stand might need to be really high to keep the fingerboard from hitting the upper bout bulge, plus some extra to maintain sufficient clearance when the top distorts some more.

[Dr. Mark]

4 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

I was taught to measure from the plate edge,

I try to remember to measure the overstand from the plate edge because I read some well-known professional on MN who wrote to do it that way.  True!  Not paid for by the billionaires!

My dream is to design a violin with a horizontal fingerboard, having sufficient overstand, and with the bridge at an angle on the downslope of the arch towards the saddle such that the string angles at the bridge are identical. Top it off with new f-hole size and placement!

My....object all sublime

Will be an ethical crime

To make the violin fit the times, the violin fit the times.

And every violin lent

To get the new treatment

Will be a new experiment - at least to some extent!

 Ha Ha eat your hearts out.  A celebratory glass of plum wine is in order, but it's not 5 yet... 

[Violadamore]

31 minutes ago, Dr. Mark said:

...........

My dream is to design a violin with a horizontal fingerboard, having sufficient overstand, and with the bridge at an angle on the downslope of the arch towards the saddle such that the string angles at the bridge are identical. Top it off with new f-hole size and placement!

My....object all sublime

Will be an ethical crime

To make the violin fit the times, the violin fit the times.

And every violin lent

To get the new treatment

Will be a new experiment - at least to some extent!

 Ha Ha eat your hearts out.  A celebratory glass of plum wine is in order, but it's not 5 yet... 

...It's past that time in London.

So go get your strings from Sweeney Todd.

They sound angelic (but outrage God).

He offers as well, fine parchment hides,

And a varnish for red violins, besides.  

[Davide Sora]

I measure from the center of the purfling, because that's an area less prone to wear than the top of the edge. It seems more accurate for comparing measures of old and new violins, if that matters. In any case, I don't think it matters where you measure; just specify how and where you measured. In any case, the difference between the two measurements isn't dramatic if the fluting isn't very deep, and you should also specify how you hold the ruler vertically, as this also affects the measurement.

[Dr. Mark]

5 hours ago, Violadamore said:

o go get your strings from Sweeney Todd.

They sound angelic (but outrage God).

He offers as well, fine parchment hides,

And a varnish for red violins, besides.  

Not bad!

[Brad Dorsey]

7 hours ago, David Burgess said:

I was taught to measure from the plate edge…

 

3 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

I measure from the center of the purfling…

Here we have two authoritative but conflicting answers, which suggests to me again that it probably doesn’t make much difference how you measure it.

What is the height difference between the purfling and the high point on the edge?  A half millimeter or, perhaps, a millimeter in an extreme case?  How much difference does it make it the overstand varies by this much?

[The Violin Beautiful]

The rationale behind the use of the purfling as reference (as explained to me) is that the edges can be exaggeratedly high or they can be worn down so much over time that the measurement can change considerably if the edge is used. In theory the purfling will still be intact even if the edges are worn down.