Neck too long?

[violins88]

A friend found a nice looking violin in a. Second hand shop. However, the neck measures 133 mm, instead of the standard 130 mm. The string length is 333 mm. The nut is 3 mm south of the thumb rest. Is this likely playable at all?

 

thanks

[LCF]

4 hours ago, violins88 said:

A friend found a nice looking violin in a. Second hand shop. However, the neck measures 133 mm, instead of the standard 130 mm. The string length is 333 mm. The nut is 3 mm south of the thumb rest. Is this likely playable at all?

 

thanks

Which way is South?

[deans]

Some players will pick this up and quickly adjust. Others might struggle more. Many dealers wont touch any instrument if their rulers and calipers tell them not to.

It sounds like one solution might just be a fatter nut by 3mm. 

[Mark Norfleet]

I agree with deans.  I’ve seen very accomplished professionals play on instruments with long string lengths and have no idea they were doing so.  Others will be troubled by reference points not being where they are used to having them.  If the heel of the neck looks normalish, shortening the FB and putting a wide nut on it is a good low effort solution.

[violins88]

South is towards the tailpiece.

[violins88]

Mark and Deans,

 

thanks.

[Rothwein]

8 hours ago, LCF said:

Which way is South?

[Rothwein]

330mm played string length is (was?) the MENC standard. IE, a standard among US music teachers. It is useful only for teaching groups when the teacher for whatever reason needs something absolute they can check against. 

I personally think it's less useful than 22/7ths for pi.

[Victor Roman]

14 hours ago, violins88 said:

A friend found a nice looking violin in a. Second hand shop. However, the neck measures 133 mm, instead of the standard 130 mm. The string length is 333 mm. The nut is 3 mm south of the thumb rest. Is this likely playable at all?

 

thanks

The differences are completely irrelevant when one compares with differences from string tensions. Myself, I could not tell and have violins with almost 10mm difference for string length. I do not know about neck length which I shall measure but I do not think it matters within a couple of mms. And proper playing should not rely on physical "landmarks", anyway. What I found to matter a lot is width and shape of fingerboard. 

[Rothwein]

Proper playing shouldn't, but the structural integrity of the instrument does. It's less important exactly what the measurement is, than whether and where it changes over time. I never properly studied calculus (played with an HP67) but the math is not what I keep in my head when I play. Practice... 

[David Burgess]

51 minutes ago, Victor Roman said:

And proper playing should not rely on physical "landmarks", anyway.

A lot of super-fine players would disagree with you. However, many of them can adjust pretty quickly to differences in the physical reference points. For example, Zukerman played both violin and viola quite well, and even if the proportions happened to be the same on both the violin and viola, the physical reference points when playing will be different.

[Victor Roman]

21 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

A lot of super-fine players would disagree with you. However, many of them can adjust pretty quickly to differences in the physical reference points. For example, Zukerman played both violin and viola quite well, and even if the proportions happened to be the same on both the violin and viola, the physical reference points when playing will be different.

In  other words, you  agree with me ?? Otherwise, am sorry but I do not understand your point. 

It is good to notice that in a lengthy and energetic piece the violin NEVER stays in tune. That means "landmarks" for one string will not correspond with other strings. Also, I played ( in the orchestra ) with Maestro Zuckerman as soloist. He plays both violin and viola exceptionally well. I knew many people who could exchange one for the other with professionally acceptable results. Not myself - I do not like the extra tension in the hand and I avoid playing viola. Mr. Mashek here in MN played violin, viola, cello and double bass at professional level. ( and piano ).  I will ask him to render an opinion and it would be helpful if you could clarify what you meant. One last point : proper technique, not often seen, is to "crawl" through positions through half position extensions. You see that with most top soloists and Perlman is a particularly good at it.

[David Burgess]

15 minutes ago, Victor Roman said:

In  other words, you  agree with me ??

No. Being able to adjust quickly between different physical reference points does not mean that the reference points are not used.

Yes, there are some very good players who have been "crawlers", but crawling isn't very effective for making  instant shifts between first and third, or first and fifth position, so even crawlers use physical reference points, such as positioning the heel of the hand so it hits the treble upper bout at certain intervals or positions.

[VicM]

16 hours ago, Victor Roman said:

Mr. Mashek here in MN played violin, viola, cello and double bass at professional level. ( and piano ).  I will ask him to render an opinion and it would be helpful if you could clarify what you meant. One last point : proper technique, not often seen, is to "crawl" through positions through half position extensions. You see that with most top soloists and Perlman is a particularly good at it.

1. Victor will do - Mr. Mashek was my father...

2. I do not quite understand what David Burgess' point is. If there is any. Sometimes he just likes to contradict.

[VicM]

16 hours ago, David Burgess said:

1. No. Being able to adjust quickly between different physical reference points does not mean that the reference points are not used.

2. Yes, there are some very good players who have been "crawlers", but crawling isn't very effective for making  instant shifts between first and third, or first and fifth position, so even crawlers use physical reference points, such as positioning the heel of the hand so it hits the treble upper bout at certain intervals or positions.

1. Used for WHAT ? Used to know the instrument is somewhere around your hand, yes.   I do not need to TOUCH the heel of the violin ( DID not need... ) to know where I am on the fingerboard and what finger spacing to use because any change I make is ear driven and validated. Yes, with my hand on the edge I know where I am more or less within a half a tone and maybe much better, say 1/4 tone. But that is nowhere close to what clean intonation means.

2. You think "crawling" through positions ( extending one finger...) is SLOWER than moving the entire arm ? Do you have tiny hands ? Place your hand in 2nd and play all 1st and 3rd fingered notes with extensions - that is the general idea of it. Note how many players extend 3rd instead of 4th higher up and how much you can extend 1st down. With good hand you can cover a lot from 2nd +.

Of course, it goes without saying that when one changes instruments, one needs some time to become familiar with the new one.

Basically, a long shaft is all the needed reference point :

 

 

 

[Rothwein]

Ah... another measuring contest. Mine is 135 in fifth.

[nathan slobodkin]

I’d be interested to hear the musicians who are commenting here talk a bit about the adjustments to a short neck which I have always thought to be a much more significant problem. Also maybe some cellists could weigh in on how much they depend on where their thumb hits the neck heel when shifting.

As some one whose playing peaked as the concert master of my junior high school orchestra I find myself relying on clients reactions to certain measurements and am usually pretty tied to rulers and calipers so it is interesting to hear how people adapt to “non standard” instruments.

[Altgeiger]

This whole discussion is funny to a violist: it must be nice to expect that two instruments might be vaguely similar in shape and size!

[nathan slobodkin]

1 hour ago, Altgeiger said:

This whole discussion is funny to a violist: it must be nice to expect that two instruments might be vaguely similar in shape and size!

But then, you are not expected to play in tune!

[David Burgess]

11 hours ago, VicM said:

2. You think "crawling" through positions ( extending one finger...) is SLOWER than moving the entire arm ?

LOL, hell yes, particularly when moving from a note in first position to a consecutive note in 5th position in 1/2 second. Crawling ain't gonna cut it, nor does crawling suffice for all the changes in hand position in the video you linked.

I don't have problems with her intonation, but she also has the advantage of a much longer string length than that of a violin, which allows acceptable intonation with greater (measured) inaccuracy in finger placement.

Cellos too have a longer neck in comparison to the width of the hand, so cellists too will run up against the physical reference points like the body end of the pegbox, the edge of the top, and the heel less frequently than a violinist. Still, some of them manage to sound pretty good, and I don't know of any half-decent or better cellist who doesn't use these reference points.

[David Burgess]

10 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

???????????

Oops, unintentional double post. Lost my way while "crawling", as opposed to using physical reference points. 

[Mansfield Piggot]

That's Zamfira, queen of the stick fiddle.  You can't compare her to a normal human being.

[David Beard]

 Highly individual territory.

Certainly there are many violinists with very specific expectations about the physical reference points, and the specific string length.

To me, as a player, those things hold little to no significance.   My primary references are the octave frame of my hand, the notes I've just played, and the points along the string where notes resonant.

There can be some adjusting when picking up an unfamiliar instrument, but that doesn't take long.

Note spacing varies much more by position than by small differences in string length.

I realize though that many players rely more on the physical layout.

As very much just my opinion, I don't see reliance on physical layout as a strength.   The ear must always be active and be the final rule in violin playing.   

Each to their own.   

[David Burgess]

Despite how long and how hard I have tried, and despite being very well educated on the topic, very few of my clients have been receptive to my trying to tell them how to play better, or how to get more out of their instrument.  

So for the most part, people in my trade try to conform the instrument to what the player desires or is accustomed to, whether or not what they want is optimal.

[David Beard]

So true.  Enough players want predictable layout and references.

They win.

I like to say 'build by old ways, but set up belongs to today.'