Non water based sealer

[Owen Morse-Brown]

Years ago I had not heard about using a protein sealer before varnish and so I always began with my oil based ground. I just had an instrument of mine in for repair from 24 years ago which will have been finished like this and I thought the overall finish was better than what I've been doing recently involving either egg white or gelatin sealers before varnish. 

I never did like putting water on my work after spending so long scraping and burnishing to a lovely sheen. It just seems pointless to raise the gain so much when the burnished wood can take an oil finish straight away and leave you needing fewer layers and less sanding/polishing. Edgework especially is spoiled by a water based sealer. It doesn't make sense to me that this really could be what the older masters did.

So my question is, knowing that it supposed to be better not to have oil based finish soaking into the wood, what alternative non water based sealers do people use?

[Davide Sora]

Resin or resins with an appropriate refractive index dissolved in turpentine or alcohol. With turpentine essence the effect of raised grain is practically nullified; with alcohol, it manifests itself a bit due to the water content, but to a lesser extent than with aqueous solutions, with the hot ones at the top.

[Owen Morse-Brown]

Thanks David, that makes s lot of sense.

[Owen Morse-Brown]

47 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

Resin or resins with an appropriate refractive index dissolved in turpentine or alcohol. With turpentine essence the effect of raised grain is practically nullified; with alcohol, it manifests itself a bit due to the water content, but to a lesser extent than with aqueous solutions, with the hot ones at the top.

I think only mastic would dissolve in turpentine but is that too soft? A harder resin such a copal would require heating first and sandarac seems to only partially dissolve in turpentine. I think I'd prefer turps over alcohol to avoid any grain raising.

[Don Noon]

Any number of resins can be dissolved in some something... acetone, MEK, laquer thinner, xylene, etc.  With the exception of a light casein coat on the spruce, I avoid water and alcohol based coatings, as I don't think they look as good.

My current favorite is terpene resin in a combination of a few different solvents.  Or copal with a light dye (in MEK).

[Davide Sora]

45 minutes ago, Owen Morse-Brown said:

I think only mastic would dissolve in turpentine but is that too soft? A harder resin such a copal would require heating first and sandarac seems to only partially dissolve in turpentine. I think I'd prefer turps over alcohol to avoid any grain raising.

I use mastic and turpentine. The sizing shouldn't make a layer, and with such a thin coat, the softness of the resin is quite secondary. I've also used cooked colophony (pine, spruce, larch, fir) in turpentine; if you cook it, perhaps with lime, it becomes quite hard, although not as hard as copal or sandarac (I'm not sure about the latter). Cooking also imparts some color, depending on the temperature, cooking times, and the conifer from which the resin you use comes. Mastic is the simplest and least laborious to use, practically colorless but very refractive.

 

[Owen Morse-Brown]

9 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

I use mastic and turpentine. The sizing shouldn't make a layer, and with such a thin coat, the softness of the resin is quite secondary. I've also used cooked colophony (pine, spruce, larch, fir) in turpentine; if you cook it, perhaps with lime, it becomes quite hard, although not as hard as copal or sandarac (I'm not sure about the latter). Cooking also imparts some color, depending on the temperature, cooking times, and the conifer from which the resin you use comes. Mastic is the simplest and least laborious to use, practically colorless but very refractive.

 

Thank you again, all your videos are so informative!

 

[Owen Morse-Brown]

David, 

I have made some mastic/terpentine as per your video and am ready to do some tests. I notice however that you still use a casein sealer before the mastic and as my original question, I was looking for a sealer that did not involve wetting the surface with water. What are your thoughts on using the mastic without the prior casein?

[Davide Sora]

47 minutes ago, Owen Morse-Brown said:

David, 

I have made some mastic/terpentine as per your video and am ready to do some tests. I notice however that you still use a casein sealer before the mastic and as my original question, I was looking for a sealer that did not involve wetting the surface with water. What are your thoughts on using the mastic without the prior casein?

It works; I used it this way for several years before introducing the protein sizing. To be precise, I used only mastic and turpentine before; then I used casein only for the spruce, but not for maple, where I only used the resinous size/sealer. For a while, I also used cooked rosin instead of mastic. Today, I apply casein everywhere, followed by mastic. In the future? Who knows...

[Owen Morse-Brown]

Thank you again, I am excited to try this out.

[Claudius]

My key word in this case is "tradition": why Stradivari&C. used water based grounds? In my opinion the original varnishes are astonishing beautiful. And the water based grounds are part of that beauty due to a particular optical characteristic we call "dichroism", where you can see oil varnishes lie over water based grounds. Part of this dichroism is caused by the differing refractive indexes of the grounds, varnishes and pigments. 

You can achieve good results with oil or resin based grounds, but it will be a different thing, not as fascinating as the classic water based grounds/oil varnishes combinations. 

After carefully scraping the wood and repeatedly moistening it more times, I'm now preparing it with a well diluted hide glue/alum 1:20 solution, and stop: no other abrasive agents are used. The wood is now in perfect condition to receive the first varnish coat.

[JacksonMaberry]

On 7/23/2025 at 6:30 AM, Claudius said:

My key word in this case is "tradition": why Stradivari&C. used water based grounds? In my opinion the original varnishes are astonishing beautiful. And the water based grounds are part of that beauty due to a particular optical characteristic we call "dichroism", where you can see oil varnishes lie over water based grounds. Part of this dichroism is caused by the differing refractive indexes of the grounds, varnishes and pigments. 

You can achieve good results with oil or resin based grounds, but it will be a different thing, not as fascinating as the classic water based grounds/oil varnishes combinations. 

After carefully scraping the wood and repeatedly moistening it more times, I'm now preparing it with a well diluted hide glue/alum 1:20 solution, and stop: no other abrasive agents are used. The wood is now in perfect condition to receive the first varnish coat.

Unfortunately, there is no proof to support your assertion that Cremonese makers of the Amati school used any water based ground or sealer. On the contrary, recent researches discussed extensively on this forum may suggest the opposite. More study is clearly needed.

That said, you are welcome to your position and if you are happy with the results you get, that is ultimately all that matters. While there is presently no conclusive support to any claims regarding the exact composition and method of Amati school ground, we can hope that one day there may be more information available. 

[joerobson]

1 hour ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Unfortunately, there is no proof to support your assertion that Cremonese makers of the Amati school used any water based ground or sealer. On the contrary, recent researches discussed extensively on this forum may suggest the opposite. More study is clearly needed.

That said, you are welcome to your position and if you are happy with the results you get, that is ultimately all that matters. While there is presently no conclusive support to any claims regarding the exact composition and method of Amati school ground, we can hope that one day there may be more information available. 

Agreed. However one aspect is clear to me. The "classic Cremonese ground" is not hydrophilic . 

on we go,

Joe

[JacksonMaberry]

24 minutes ago, joerobson said:

Agreed. However one aspect is clear to me. The "classic Cremonese ground" is not hydrophilic . 

on we go,

Joe

That also seems clear to me, based on the same studies we all discuss endlessly and my own observation. That rules out most but not all water-based applications. The ones it doesn't rule out tend to look pretty lousy under an oil varnish, due to bad RI matching and other factors.

[Claudius]

4 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Unfortunately, there is no proof to support your assertion that Cremonese makers of the Amati school used any water based ground or sealer. On the contrary, recent researches discussed extensively on this forum may suggest the opposite. More study is clearly needed.

That said, you are welcome to your position and if you are happy with the results you get, that is ultimately all that matters. While there is presently no conclusive support to any claims regarding the exact composition and method of Amati school ground, we can hope that one day there may be more information available. 

Your opinion based on forum topics don't give me any evidence. Please can you tell me more?

[JacksonMaberry]

28 minutes ago, Claudius said:

Your opinion based on forum topics don't give me any evidence. Please can you tell me more?

Sorry, I thought I have seen you posting in the varnish/ground threads where the same papers get mentioned again and again. 

The researchers in question:

Brandmair (who was the scientist working with Greiner on the Stradivari Varnish book)

Echard

Barlow/Wood house

Those are the big ones, and I'm sure as someone interested in the subject you've read them already, but if you haven't I'm certain you'd enjoy. 

@John Hartehas posted many fascinating papers related to the topic, as well as done a lot of experiments himself.

[Claudius]

What about the infamous protein layers, then? Brandmair has changed her mind on this? Also, Barlow and Woodhouse on their old article were more specific on the "firm ground". But most important there are millennial traditions in the art that shows something important on this regard.

[JacksonMaberry]

1 minute ago, Claudius said:

What about the infamous protein layers, then? Brandmair has changed her mind on this? Also, Barlow and Woodhouse on their old article were more specific on the "firm ground". But most important there are millennial traditions in the art that shows something important on this regard.

Maybe I misinterpreted, but my reading of Brandmair was that there is not contiguous and discrete protein "layer", only the "presence of proteins", the source of which she declined to name. 

The artistic traditions argument is, to be fair, a worthy one and one I won't discount out of hand. That said, there are plenty of non - aqueous sizes/grounds attested in tradition as well, so that argument can only get us so far. 

I have experimented extensively with all manner of aqueous and non aqueous grounds, alone and under varnish, and so far none of the aqueous grounds have permitted me to achieve results in any way similar to the Cremona work. It could just be a personal failing, and I will continue to revisit old techniques and materials as I gather more knowledge. I try to make a point of never closing my mind to possibilities where ambiguity remains, while also treating my most current and plausible hypotheses with the respect they have earned through the course of my research.

If you have evidence to share to support your view, I would be very happy to learn!

[Claudius]

@JacksonMaberry 

I do not support Brandmair's work due to a perceived conflict of interest between scientific research and marketing. However, her identification of 'protein presence' remains significant—even though she couldn’t specify which proteins were detected (a limitation of the analytical methods available at the time).

The use of proteins (e.g., egg, casein, or animal glue) as a ground layer is well-documented in both historical and modern violinmaking traditions. When I mentioned to Charles Beare that I was experimenting with egg white as a ground, he affirmed its excellent suitability for violins.

This reflects what I consider a truly philological approach to violinmaking: one that combines tradition, rigorous study of original instruments, and practical experimentation in modern practice.

Recently the Arvedi Lab in Cremona has found proteins layers from few classic instruments identifiable as bovine origin glue.

Moreover, Europe has a centuries old tradition of woodcarvers using protein-based coatings such as glue, casein, or egg to prepare the wood before priming. While violinmaking evolved from woodcarving traditions, this doesn’t oblige you to use a water-based ground, especially if you dislike the technique or find it impractical. Historically, some luthiers even applied varnish directly without any ground layer at all. Tradition offers guidance, not rigid rules.

 

 

 

[JacksonMaberry]

5 hours ago, Claudius said:

@JacksonMaberry 

I do not support Brandmair's work due to a perceived conflict of interest between scientific research and marketing. However, her identification of 'protein presence' remains significant—even though she couldn’t specify which proteins were detected (a limitation of the analytical methods available at the time).

The use of proteins (e.g., egg, casein, or animal glue) as a ground layer is well-documented in both historical and modern violinmaking traditions. When I mentioned to Charles Beare that I was experimenting with egg white as a ground, he affirmed its excellent suitability for violins.

This reflects what I consider a truly philological approach to violinmaking: one that combines tradition, rigorous study of original instruments, and practical experimentation in modern practice.

Recently the Arvedi Lab in Cremona has found proteins layers from few classic instruments identifiable as bovine origin glue.

Moreover, Europe has a centuries old tradition of woodcarvers using protein-based coatings such as glue, casein, or egg to prepare the wood before priming. While violinmaking evolved from woodcarving traditions, this doesn’t oblige you to use a water-based ground, especially if you dislike the technique or find it impractical. Historically, some luthiers even applied varnish directly without any ground layer at all. Tradition offers guidance, not rigid rules.

 

 

 

Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me! I appreciate it. I also appreciate the reminder that "tradition offers guidance, not rigidity". I think that could be applied to all aspects of my life with beneficial results. 

[Alchemia succini]

Stefan-Peter Greiner, "The Build-up of Layers in Stradivari's Varnish" (p. 18 in the B&G Stradivari Varnish book):

"Using chemical techniques to investigate the composition of this first layer, we found something of great interest. We consistently found significant  quantities of protein in the uppermost structure of the wood.

Such concentrations of protein are not a naturally occurring phenomenon in maple or spruce. Had we found only isolated areas of protein on the instruments, we would have had to consider the possibility of glue residue or an accidental transfer of protein, through foodstuffs for example.

However, due to the consistency with which we were able to establish the presence of these proteins in all samples across the entire production span of Stradivari's instruments and at different places on the instruments, the possibility of a coincidence can be ruled out."

 

Dave

 

[John Harte]

On 7/26/2025 at 12:29 PM, JacksonMaberry said:

Sorry, I thought I have seen you posting in the varnish/ground threads where the same papers get mentioned again and again. 

The researchers in question:

Brandmair (who was the scientist working with Greiner on the Stradivari Varnish book)

Echard

Barlow/Wood house

Those are the big ones, and I'm sure as someone interested in the subject you've read them already, but if you haven't I'm certain you'd enjoy. 

@John Hartehas posted many fascinating papers related to the topic, as well as done a lot of experiments himself.

The Arvedi Lab group mentioned by Claudius should be added to this list.  A large number of studies have been conducted by this group.

I seem to recall Brandmair having identified specific proteins; i.e., casein, collagen and ovalbumin. 

The identification of specific protein presence, often in a degraded state, is complex and difficult.  The choice of appropriate reference sample material, antibodies, choice of database in the data analysis etc., are important factors in the various analytical techniques that have been used.  These often seem chosen based upon what researchers expect/hope to find.  The identification of specific protein presence within observable discrete layerings found in paintings and some violin varnishes is, I suspect, somewhat easier than what might be involved in Stradivari varnish systems.

[Claudius]

Getting back to the topic, I remember that in painting tradition there exists a type of imprimitura based on an oil, chalk, glue and water emulsion. It works well, and its purpose is to regulate the absorption of oil paint into the ground (or imprimitura layer).

I have never tried this type of ground on my violins, but I think it could work well with a small percentage of kaolin, chalk, or calcium carbonate added to the glue/oil/water emulsion. This might improve transparency and reduce sensitivity to humidity compared to traditional gesso preparations.

[Will Turner]

Interesting the debate of water based or non water based sealers.  As a learning maker, I'm watching this space with interest.    While I've had, in my own less educated opinion so take that into consideration, great success with casein based sealers.    Sounds like before I come to a conclusion, I should try some mastic & turpentine as per @Davide Sora.    The interesting portion is that you mention @Davide Sora, that you use casein everywhere at this point before the mastic & turpentine.

Currently, while not traditional, I've been experimenting with Michael R. Molnar's (may he rest in peace) Lupot's Dichromatic Stain.     It's a casein stabilized stain and the potassium caseinate does act as a very light size.    I wonder how the mastic/turpentine formulation would look over that.       I'll do some scrap wood testing and update at some point.

I'd been using a store bought sealer/ground, but I look to Maestronet for excellent suggestions that are likely to turn out much better.    Currently I'd been using Joha Oil Varnish Clear Ground, mixing in a portion of Pumice, but I have seen suggestions that really look fantastic here.

Will be interesting to see the ongoing opinions here regarding water vs non-water sealers.   Ultimately, I'll have to try each method on scrap and make decisions based on the results.    Thankful for this wonderful resource were so many are willing to share details.

 

[MikeC]

There's another quite interesting research paper but I can't seem to find it.  I thought I had it saved on my hard drive.    John Harte would know of it.   

For an initial sealer I would like to try gum tragacanth,  If I can figure out how to use it.   It was mentioned in Librum Segreti de Butegha.