The Tea: FAMED VIOLIN DEALER IS SUED FOR $30M ALLEGED FRAUD NEWS

[David Burgess]

9 hours ago, fragslap said:

Seems to me that if there WEREN'T any "written agreements," then the plaintiff is up the proverbial "s__t creek." 

In some jurisdictions, a verbal contract carries as much weight as a written one. The difficulty is in proving what was said.

[Dr. Mark]

6 hours ago, lFred said:

This is a thing ?

"The family had invested $5.6 million in the “Thunis” Stradivarius, which they later learned had multiple undisclosed investors and had actually been acquired for less than $5 million. "..

 12% ? profit

Per Mr. Homes' comment: I agree it's unclear - however it doesn't seem relevant if it was owned by 'multiple investors' prior to purchase any more than if it had a single prior 'investor'.  And regardless what is meant, it also doesn't seem grounds for a suit if the plaintiff subsequently was the sole owner.  It does make sense if multiple investors, only one of which is the plaintiff and none of whom receive sole ownership, were involved in the purchase and the plaintiff's portion of the price was greater than the purchase price of the violin.  But even here it does seem that such a speculative investment is a matter of caveat emptor rather than grounds for a suit. 

If the plaintiff was led to believe that he would be the sole owner there may be grounds.  That would be a nasty trick for a dealer to pull.  I wonder what the court's criteria are for determining that?  Maybe standard bill of sale with no mention of 'share' or other investors would be enough?

[lFred]

seems I failed to understand what the article meant.. I thought the plaintiff was suing because the dealer made 12% profit .. and that made little to no sens..

[deans]

From the blurb that David linked, it looks more like the problem also involves possession. I see the wording "wrongfully witholding" Which might be more serious than arguments over value and price. 

[Dr. Mark]

9 minutes ago, deans said:

From the blurb that David linked, it looks more like the problem also involves possession. I see the wording "wrongfully witholding" Which might be more serious than arguments over value and price. 

Yeah, it may follow though.  If the plaintiff suddenly finds that he is not sole owner it may also mean he has no right of possession.  That's where this might be heading, but I'm just guessing.

[jacobsaunders]

30 minutes ago, Dr. Mark said:

but I'm just guessing.

everybody is "just guessing"

[lFred]

just got page 1..

[Hempel]

There is another lawsuit that P&G Rare Violins is currently embroiled.

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/texas/txndce/3:2024cv00164/385420/42/

When a dealer is embroiled in multiple lawsuits, it pays to be circumspect.

 

[jacobsaunders]

On 6/14/2025 at 2:00 AM, Hempel said:

There is another lawsuit that P&G Rare Violins is currently embroiled.

https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/texas/txndce/3:2024cv00164/385420/42/

When a dealer is embroiled in multiple lawsuits, it pays to be circumspect.

 

Isn't that the same lawsuit somewhere else

[Hempel]

4 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Isn't that the same lawsuit somewhere else

The lawsuit I cited was initiated by a cellist in Texas.  According to the court document, the cellist was sold a stolen FX Tourte bow by P&G.  Five years after the cellist purchased the bow, he was informed by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) the bow was likely stolen.  The cellist (through his lawyer) surrendered the bow to DHS.  Texas cellist did not get recompensed by P&G, and sued them (in Texas) on various legal grounds, including knowingly false representation on title.  Texas court decided Texas did not have jurisdiction over the case, and referred the case to Northern District of Illinois (where P&G is based).  The bow is valued at ~$350K, and the case is now being litigated in Illinois.

The case mentioned in the OP (referencing slippeddisc.com) is a separate case, involving several violins, and plaintiff "Langman Family (not Texas cellist)" is seeking $30M.

[Dr. Mark]

6 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Isn't that the same lawsuit somewhere else

No, I think this latter one is the Iwasaki cello bow lawsuit.  According to the suit the bow was stolen and the seller did not have title when they sold it.

hmmm...The Fencing Room:  Invited to dinner and stay-over by a wealthy friend, he finds that a room in the castle is intensely haunted.  Wandering about late that night he finds himself in the room as the witching hour strikes.  A voice whispers in his ear: 'Such a deal I have for you!', just before all Hell breaks loose...

[Andrew tkinson]

4 hours ago, Dr. Mark said:

No, I think this latter one is the Iwasaki cello bow lawsuit.  According to the suit the bow was stolen and the seller did not have title when they sold it.

hmmm...The Fencing Room:  Invited to dinner and stay-over by a wealthy friend, he finds that a room in the castle is intensely haunted.  Wandering about late that night he finds himself in the room as the witching hour strikes.  A voice whispers in his ear: 'Such a deal I have for you!', just before all Hell breaks loose...

Please forgive my poor literary efforts. M R James will be rolling in his grave?

 

Smithers undressed and carefully placed his old family Cremona fiddle on the bed side table before snuffing out the candle in room number 13. Although exhausted after the long carriage journey, he found himself unable to sleep soundly as he felt a strange sensation that the walls of his bed chamber were moving - as if alive? At one stage, half dreaming, he opened his eyes and he was convinced the bedside table and violin case seemed to have disappeared, and was, somehow, now on the other side of the the wall!

Next morning after a deep but disturbed sleep he awoke with a start and glancing quickly over at the bedside table he felt immense relief to see the familiar old chestnut brown leather of his grandfathers old violin case, precisely where he had left it the previous night.

He rang the bell to request some hot water for his customary morning shave and while he listened for the sound of the landlord's heavy approaching footsteps, he smiled at himself for entertaining such wild and foolish notions of moving living walls and disappearing violin cases. While he waited, he turned towards the bedside table and absent mindedly opened the violin case, expecting to see his old familiar friend.

 "Good God!" he exclaimed, dropping his razor to the floor.

Nearly fainting, he stiffened his upper lip and having recovered a little, forced himself to look again, inside of the case, in the place of his rare old Cremona fiddle, nesting there, like a changeling, there was -------- A USUAL!

 

 

[LCF]

39 minutes ago, Andrew tkinson said:

... While he waited, he turned towards the bedside table and absent mindedly opened the violin case, expecting to see his old familiar friend.

 "Good God!" he exclaimed, dropping his razor to the floor.

Nearly fainting, he stiffened his upper lip and having recovered a little, forced himself to look again, inside of the case, in the place of his rare old Cremona fiddle, nesting there, like a changeling, there was -------- A USUAL!

 

 

That's the story he wrote on the insurance claim form, anyway. 

[Violadamore]

11 hours ago, Andrew tkinson said:

Please forgive my poor literary efforts. M R James will be rolling in his grave?

 

Smithers undressed and carefully placed his old family Cremona fiddle on the bed side table before snuffing out the candle in room number 13. Although exhausted after the long carriage journey, he found himself unable to sleep soundly as he felt a strange sensation that the walls of his bed chamber were moving - as if alive? At one stage, half dreaming, he opened his eyes and he was convinced the bedside table and violin case seemed to have disappeared, and was, somehow, now on the other side of the the wall!

Next morning after a deep but disturbed sleep he awoke with a start and glancing quickly over at the bedside table he felt immense relief to see the familiar old chestnut brown leather of his grandfathers old violin case, precisely where he had left it the previous night.

He rang the bell to request some hot water for his customary morning shave and while he listened for the sound of the landlord's heavy approaching footsteps, he smiled at himself for entertaining such wild and foolish notions of moving living walls and disappearing violin cases. While he waited, he turned towards the bedside table and absent mindedly opened the violin case, expecting to see his old familiar friend.

 "Good God!" he exclaimed, dropping his razor to the floor.

Nearly fainting, he stiffened his upper lip and having recovered a little, forced himself to look again, inside of the case, in the place of his rare old Cremona fiddle, nesting there, like a changeling, there was -------- A USUAL!

 

 

Well written!!  

10 hours ago, LCF said:

That's the story he wrote on the insurance claim form, anyway. 

Nowadays, there would have been strange noises and lighting effects, while Smithers, terrified, lay paralyzed in his bed, then reported that his violin was abducted by space aliens.  

[Dr. Mark]

11 hours ago, Andrew tkinson said:

Please forgive my poor literary efforts. M R James will be rolling in his grave?

It's an addictive pastime - like fine wine.