Accomodating the unusual

[nathan slobodkin]

I just had a customer come in with a beat up old cello of uncertain origin that has a stop of 415 mm a neck length adjusted to 273 by a T-nut, numerous badly repaired cracks, a fingerboard with virtually no lenghwise scoop at all and string heights of 6 and 4 mm. He is a competent professional player who has played the instrument for 30+ years and tells me that the instrument sounded fantastic until he had a new bridge made and a Wittner tailpiece installed. The new bridge is a semi professional job and the soundpost is now set over 5mm outside the bridge foot so I assume that the yahoo who did the work had it fall and simply stood it back up with no regard for the fact that it was now way too short after 30 years without being moved. 

The owner now wants me to make a bridge and post to "get his sound back".

 Having spent a life time using standard measurements from whatever shop I worked for and building instruments designed around them I am at a bit of a loss to understand how to adjust this instrument for him. I was a violinist not a cellist but have been told by many players that the 280 mm neck length is preferred even on instuments with varying stop lenghts and while I have made bridges with low string heights for older or infirm players at their request I find it difficult to believe that a strong, aggressive player will be happy with this set up over time. 

I am interested in how other people handle this sort of situation. Do you try to talk the guy into more standard measurements? Redo the setup as he thinks it originally was but tell him you don't guarantee his satsisfaction? Tell him you are booked until after Christmas? 

Seriously, comments from people about set up of oddly proportioned instruments and or unusual requests from players requested.

[jacobsaunders]

You could tell him that you know a Mr. Burgess who is specialised on jobs like that

[Michael Darnton]

Your normal or not, the way he liked it was the way it was before the yahoo got to it. If you decide you want to work with him, that's your goal, the way it was before, and you need to figure out what that previous state was.

Only you are in a position to know how reasonable he's going to be about it all, but if I did it I would discuss EVERY decision with him and make sure he understands what you're doing. More customer participation means less fighting in the future. I get a lot of mileage out of telling them more than they need to know and making sure it's simple enough for them to understand. In fact I know for sure that this is responsible for why people recommend me to others.

And yes, make a correct post, but save the old one just in case that's part of what he liked.

[GeorgeH]

What happened to the old bridge?

[Evan Smith]

I find it helpful, especially in these types of situations, to actually spend some time with him while he plays, on his cello and on several others.

That can tell you more than words.

[Randall The Restorer]

55 minutes ago, Evan Smith said:

I find it helpful, especially in these types of situations, to actually spend some time with him while he plays, on his cello and on several others.

That can tell you more than words.

Amen to that!

That’s what the guitar maker did before he started to build the bespoke instrument that I commissioned. (Of course I played guitars, not cellos.)

[Randall The Restorer]

Nathan,

I am not the least bit qualified to give technical advice.
 

However, reading your post, I was almost moved to tears by your show of humility, genuineness, and dedication to do the very best  you can for this person.

The world needs more people like you. 
 
Yours truly, 

Randy O’Malley

[Andreas Preuss]

11 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

I just had a customer come in with a beat up old cello of uncertain origin that has a stop of 415 mm a neck length adjusted to 273 by a T-nut, numerous badly repaired cracks, a fingerboard with virtually no lenghwise scoop at all and string heights of 6 and 4 mm. He is a competent professional player who has played the instrument for 30+ years and tells me that the instrument sounded fantastic until he had a new bridge made and a Wittner tailpiece installed. The new bridge is a semi professional job and the soundpost is now set over 5mm outside the bridge foot so I assume that the yahoo who did the work had it fall and simply stood it back up with no regard for the fact that it was now way too short after 30 years without being moved. 

The owner now wants me to make a bridge and post to "get his sound back".

 Having spent a life time using standard measurements from whatever shop I worked for and building instruments designed around them I am at a bit of a loss to understand how to adjust this instrument for him. I was a violinist not a cellist but have been told by many players that the 280 mm neck length is preferred even on instuments with varying stop lenghts and while I have made bridges with low string heights for older or infirm players at their request I find it difficult to believe that a strong, aggressive player will be happy with this set up over time. 

I am interested in how other people handle this sort of situation. Do you try to talk the guy into more standard measurements? Redo the setup as he thinks it originally was but tell him you don't guarantee his satsisfaction? Tell him you are booked until after Christmas? 

Seriously, comments from people about set up of oddly proportioned instruments and or unusual requests from players requested.

For me it is a bit the question how well I know the customer. With a new customer you might end up to spent hours and hours chasing the phantom of a certain sound most often with no satisfying result. In any case I would make clear at the beginning that it’s not paid for the result but for the time spent, so it can end up to be quite expensive. 

With a customer I know longer (and then it’s the question why he got the bad setup from someone else in the first place) I would try to set things back with the idea in mind that it can end up to be a quite unusual setup. 

 

[nathan slobodkin]

Obviously this case iy is someone coming in for the first time.

My question not only regards dealing with the customer but the whole concept of compromise involved with working on older instruments rather than building new ones. 

Some one in the past used the extended T-nut to approach a "normal" string length. My understanding as a maker but not a cello player is that having the fingers fall perfectly in tune when the thumb hits the neck heel is paramount and there have been times when I have adjusted the ff hole position on various cello models to allow for this while keeping a standard neck length. I am not understanding how a long stop and short neck can give this result although this player tells me it feels fine to him.

There are often other compromises in repair work which must be dealt with such as oddly placed bass bars, necks which are not perfectly centered or straight, oddly spaced or off center FFs Etc.

When making instruments it may take two or three instruments on a new pattern to decide what works best but with  a restoration you only get one chance and with repair you get one chance but must also incorporate factors into the equation which you would like to change but cannot.

This is where my question lies, not only about this particular cello but, but in general how to accomodate players with odd tastes and instruments which must for whatever reason leave the shop with unresolved or unstable issues.

[nathan slobodkin]

1 minute ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Obviously this case iy is someone coming in for the first time.

My question not only regards dealing with the customer but the whole concept of compromise involved with working on older instruments rather than building new ones. 

Some one in the past used the extended T-nut to approach a "normal" string length. My understanding as a maker but not a cello player is that having the fingers fall perfectly in tune when the thumb hits the neck heel is paramount and there have been times when I have adjusted the ff hole position on various cello models to allow for this while keeping a standard neck length. I am not understanding how a long stop and short neck can give this result although this player tells me it feels fine to him.

There are often other compromises in repair work which must be dealt with such as oddly placed bass bars, necks which are not perfectly centered or straight, oddly spaced or off center FFs Etc.

When making instruments it may take two or three instruments on a new pattern to decide what works best but with  a restoration you only get one chance and with repair you get one chance but must also incorporate factors into the equation which you would like to change but cannot.

This is where my question lies, not only about this particular cello but, but in general how to accomodate players with odd tastes and instruments which must for whatever reason leave the shop with unresolved or unstable issues.

 

[Michael Darnton]

Players get used to anything after a while.

If this came into our shop to sell, I'd have made a 280 mm neck length (ditch the t-nut) and pulled the bridge up to about 402-405, made sure the neck set was good, and put the bar and post in the right places for the bridge position. Cellos often work even better with the bridge higher than the nicks, so this isn't really a compromise except for number weenies--the player's going to be fine with it if some snotty shop guy who only knows numbers not function doesn't get in the way, and I'd be confident that the results would satisfy.

I would not usually totally revamp a cello in that way for a player, though. . .  just between owners. With an owner you might give him back an objectively great new instrument that he hates, with all of the positions in the "wrong" place for his habit.

In this case you're stuck in a spot between those two positions. 

[M Alpert]

17 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

What happened to the old bridge?

Exactly. This is why both players and repairers should avoid modifying the old bits: save 'em!! Whenever you need to revamp a set-up, try to keep a back-to-the-old-set-up scenario!!

In other words, I'd try to get as much info as you can from the player about the set-up (s)he thought worked well, hopefully there's even a bridge, post or old tailpiece to go back to. If not, pictures? If nothing, look at the imprint of the bridge feet, check for marks of post position, estimate what that particular cello might like, listen to the owner, believe in your skills, and tell them you can tweak it if it's not immediately perfect, until you get to know the instrument and player. I'm sure you will get it!

[Wood Butcher]

22 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

I just had a customer come in with a beat up old cello of uncertain origin

He is a competent professional player who has played the instrument for 30+ years and tells me that the instrument sounded fantastic until he had a new bridge made and a Wittner tailpiece installed. 

The owner now wants me to make a bridge and post to "get his sound back".

 

To go back to the original problem, the owner wants a new bridge and post. And maybe change the tailpiece back to whatever kind it had previously. Why can't you just do that?

It seems insane to me, that on a cello they are happy with, and have been for decades, that rather than just do what they want, you are thinking about changing the neck length and all manner of other things, just because you don't like the idea of it.

Many instruments don't have modern standard measurements, but that doesn't stop them from working well in the eyes of the current owner. They are the one playing it, after all.

[jacobsaunders]

It’s always a bit of a Himmelfahrtskommando (for want of an appropriate English word) when a customer wants a cello, where everything is wrong and/or beaten up returned to an alleged previous condition that he says sounded fabulous. I certainly don’t envy Nathan

[LCF]

What is this customer playing on in the meantime? If anything. It seems unlikely that he would have two instruments configured like this one. 

[Rue]

Had to look up himmelfahrtskommando. Somehow that word never came up when Oma and I were making perogies... 

Although... I did call my son a nimmersatt the other day... which also sounds better in German. 

FWIW... I was so very happy with the original rehairing of my "good bow". Best I had ever played/handled. But when it was rehaired, it wasn't the same. Doesn't handle/sound the same. It twists, or wants to twist, on me and is less responsive.

We don't have a local bow rehairer. Will try again the next time a traveling shop sets up in town. But it doesn't need a rehair because it's worn out, it needs one because I don't want to use it any more the way it is now. 

 

[Rue]

My point is, when something is changed... the end result reflects that change. You can't ever get the old back.

My unsatisfactory rehair was done by an experienced person. No idea what they did differently.

[deans]

2 minutes ago, LCF said:

What is this customer playing on in the meantime? If anything. It seems unlikely that he would have two instruments configured like this one. 

Very good point. If this guy is a professional he would have seen hundreds of good well set up instruments over the years, from fellow musicians, teachers, shops, etc. And would be able to play them. He also would most likely have a trusted luthier and wouldnt have gotten in this situation. Thats at least what I would expect from a classically trained professional. Maybe he's a jazz player, or some other genre.

[David Burgess]

22 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

You could tell him that you know a Mr. Burgess who is specialised on jobs like that

At least that would be less expensive than taking a trip to Austria, wouldn't it?

[nathan slobodkin]

28 minutes ago, deans said:

Very good point. If this guy is a professional he would have seen hundreds of good well set up instruments over the years, from fellow musicians, teachers, shops, etc. And would be able to play them. He also would most likely have a trusted luthier and wouldnt have gotten in this situation. Thats at least what I would expect from a classically trained professional. Maybe he's a jazz player, or some other genre.

Very good point indeed. This was the first time I met this fellow who has just moved to my area. We did talk for the hour it took for me to examine and measure the cello completely as I do with any new client. He told me he has played with numerous orchestras but I was not blown away by his playing and while I was hoping to let him try some other instruments he declined and said he had a backup cello to play while his instrument is in the shop. As Jacob said these situations are not my favorites as I find that the better the player and the more experience that they have had with top end instruments and luthiers the easier they are to deal with. However as I have mentioned in other threads I am the only professionally trained luthier for a hundred miles and am sort of obligated to help my neighbors. In any case I will make a reasonable bridge and post and hope that his memory of how it sounded before is not too over inflated.

[GeorgeH]

 

55 minutes ago, deans said:

Maybe he's a jazz player, or some other genre.

[nathan slobodkin]

1 hour ago, Wood Butcher said:

To go back to the original problem, the owner wants a new bridge and post. And maybe change the tailpiece back to whatever kind it had previously. Why can't you just do that?

It seems insane to me, that on a cello they are happy with, and have been for decades, that rather than just do what they want, you are thinking about changing the neck length and all manner of other things, just because you don't like the idea of it.

Many instruments don't have modern standard measurements, but that doesn't stop them from working well in the eyes of the current owner. They are the one playing it, after all.

My decision about this cello was to either make him a post and bridge or tell him I didn't want the job . I dont have any interest in doing major restorations on instruments I don't own and don't buy instruments that are too far from "normal".

I am interested however in how those people who DO work on unusual instruments deal with their peculiarities  because I am sometimes called on to do so.

[nathan slobodkin]

2 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:

Players get used to anything after a while.

If this came into our shop to sell, I'd have made a 280 mm neck length (ditch the t-nut) and pulled the bridge up to about 402-405, made sure the neck set was good, and put the bar and post in the right places for the bridge position. Cellos often work even better with the bridge higher than the nicks, so this isn't really a compromise except for number weenies--the player's going to be fine with it if some snotty shop guy who only knows numbers not function doesn't get in the way, and I'd be confident that the results would satisfy.

I would not usually totally revamp a cello in that way for a player, though. . .  just between owners. With an owner you might give him back an objectively great new instrument that he hates, with all of the positions in the "wrong" place for his habit.

In this case you're stuck in a spot between those two positions. 

Michael

As regards your comment that some cellos sound better with the bridge set somewhat higher than the center of the FFs does that seem to be more so on widely spaced FFs? I am wondering if driving the plate closer to the narrowest point between the FFs would compensate for the stiffer configuration.

[nathan slobodkin]

Just now, nathan slobodkin said:

Michael

As regards your comment that some cellos sound better with the bridge set somewhat higher than the center of the FFs does that seem to be more so on widely spaced FFs? I am wondering if driving the plate closer to the narrowest point between the FFs would compensate for the stiffer configuration.

 

[Michael Darnton]

@nathan slobodkin It's been particularly good for stiff tops, yes. You are probably right. But it's worked OK on flatter ones, I think.