Antony Posch Hoflautenmacher zu Wien (in Vienna)

[jacobsaunders]

Antony Posch was born on 19^th February 1677 in Vils. Vils is 8 kilometres upstream from Füssen, on the Austrian side of the boarder in Tirol, so I suppose we have a Tirolean violin maker for once.

 

Normally it is frustrating that one cannot find out who worked with or for whom in the 18thC. In this case the entire payroll of the Viennese Hof, from 1711 to 1765 has been published.

It was an unimaginably colossal bureaucracy, with every imaginable profession, down to “Sesselträger” (chair carrier) I suppose the Uber driver of the period. The Lautenmacher are listed; Anton Posch, Anton Stephan Posch (his son) and Joseph Stadlmann, the Lautenmacher Adjunkt: Johann Lazarus Fux (Posch’s step son) and Anton Stephan Posch, as well as the “Instrumentdiener”; Johann Baptist Schnautz, Johann Lazarus Fux, Valerius Pacher and the “Instrumentdiener Adjunkt” Franz Peter Schnautz, Johann Lazarus Fux, Martin Arnold Vorlender, Valerius Pacher, and Johann Franz Xaver Zeiss.

 

Before the Viennese Hoflautenmacher Mathias Fux passed away in 1700 he had been ill, and his wife asked to assume the responsibilities of Hoflautenmacher, which she had been doing for some time with the help of a journeyman, also that she had 7 under aged children to look after, and was currently pregnant. One may assume that this journeyman was Posch. By 1702 Posch is recorded as having married the widow Fux, and is described as “Lautenmacher”. Due to the growing number of violinists at the Hof, he even got a 100 Gulden higher wage than Fux. From his salary of 400 Gulden he was required to provide the necessary strings, as well as care for the 7 half-orphaned children of his new wife.

 

This provision of strings from the salary of the Hof Lautenmacher was a constant bone of contention, as many original documents from the Hof archives show, which have been published by Beatrix Darmstädter on the home page of the Kunsthistorische Museum https://repository.khm.at/viewer/fulltext/0061521/105/ .

 

Posch complained for instance in 1724 that the orchestra had grown to three times the size, and that he couldn’t possibly string 30 instruments from his 400 Gulden annual salary. His request was declined however, since they didn’t believe him that there were only 4 violinists when he started in 1702, and further that the 7 orphans he was obliged to look after back then were all now grown up. When he tried again in 1725, Posch corrected his figures in so far as he said that the orchestra had “at most” a dozen violinists when he started in 1702. His successor, Stadlmann was even more vehement complaining about string costs.

 

It is difficult to know how literally to take all of these complaints, since grumbling that one is hard up has been a favourite hobby of violin makers for hundreds of years, and he was free to make and sell a violin etc. to someone who had nothing to do with the Hof for cash as often as he could manage, hardly an option for a Sesselträger (chair carrier). Further I have no knowledge of how string supply was in the 18^th C. Today one sends an Email to the Petz firm, and a Turkish gentleman in a white van brings a cardboard box full of strings the very next day. Perhaps a Maestronetter with knowledge of the subject can tell me if there were string suppliers back then, or if Posch had to go out and mug somebody's cat

 

The post as Hoflautenmacher was more wide ranging than one might think, since the orchestra also had appearances in places like Pressburg, Prague, Triest, Karlsbad, Linz, and Graz, where they would require assistance from one of the Hoflautenmacher team. From Vienna to Graz today is about a 2 ½ hours drive on a modern motorway, much of which goes on stilts through a mountain range. Quite how long Posch would have needed, cross country in a horse driven carriage I dread to think. Triest is even further. Anton Stephan Posch had an accident in 1749 near Gollitsch (N. Niederösterrich, near the Czech boarder), where his carriage rolled over, and he died 14 days later of his injuries. An Anton Stephan Posch violin can be seen on the web site of my colleague Gerlinde Reuterer https://reutterer.at/01violin.html

 

Posch was also one of the marriage witnesses for Martin Mathias Fichtl in 1725 along with Leidolff as I mentioned here https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/340459-martin-mathias-fichtl-vienna-large-cello/

 

 

 

[jacobsaunders]

I sold this Anton Posch violin from 1726 to a German Konzertmeister 30 years ago, and he has used it as his principal violin since then. Sadly he has now passed away, and the violin has found it’s way back home.

 

The back is of 2 pieces of lightly flamed maple. The flames go very lightly uphill from left to right right across the instrument. I have seen this phenomenon quite often on old instruments (notably with Stainer). It can be achieved by turning one half of a book matched back upside down, before joining it. Originally the back will have had the obligatory paper or parchment strip on the centre joint inside, but some busy body has removed that, and replaced it with pine cleats. The arching is quite full. There are no positioning pins.

 

The belly of two pieces of medium/fine pine. The F holes are perhaps set slightly high on the instrument, and fairly wide apart (49mm).

 

The ribs are built around a form. 18.C Viennese ribs are generally fairly high. In this case they only range from 30mm at the neck root and 32mm at the end pin. At the end pin is a very faint “Mittenwald notch” so that one can hardly see it. The pine linings are let into the corner blocks, which are fairly small, and only have a fairly small glueing area to the top/bottom ribs.

 

The scroll has a pronounced S shaped pegbox. As with all 18thC Viennese violins, the pegbox is carved out quite a long way past the A peg hole (another feature one may see with Stainer) The fluting in the throat is carved to the bitter end.

 

The varnish is typical of early 18thC Vienna. A fairly thick orangeish-yellow coat which has split off the wood leaving a familiar texture. In this case, someone seems to have shellacked over any bare bits that this splitting off revealed. This is the Viennese varnish that preceded the dark Viennese varnish which was popular after Posch, for instance with his successor Stadlmann.

 

The whole violin has a voluptuous round comfortable feeling to it, like a cherub on a baroque altar

 

[jacobsaunders]

Many, if not all 18thC Viennese labels are had written, imitating print. One may discern this by comparing identical characters and comparing serifs etc. This was a profession of its own “typographus“. This Typograph seems to have spent all afternoon drawing this label. At the first cursory glance through the F-hole, one can even briefly wonder if it isn’t a copper engraving (it isn’t). The double headed eagle with a crown floating above the two heads is the heraldic animal of the Hapsburg's (Posch’s employer). Normally I would expect the eagle to clutch a sword in one claw, and an orb in the other. Unfortunately this label is slightly crumpled on the lower right had side so that one has difficulty to make out exactly what it is clutching in it’s right claw. The heraldic animal of Austria is to this day the double headed eagle, although after the first word war, they swapped his sword/orb out for a hammer and sickle, which it still is.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Thank you for posting this Jacob!

[David Burgess]

Thanks, Jacob. Cool stuff!

[Blank face]

Great informations and pictures, as always a fantastic reference. Thanks a lot.

[Violadamore]

What an informative and marvelous read!  Thanks loads yet again, Jacob. 

[Jerry Alberson]

Thank you Jacob I really enjoyed all you shared 

[Hempel]

11 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Many, if not all 18thC Viennese labels are had written, imitating print. One may discern this by comparing identical characters and comparing serifs etc. This was a profession of its own “typographus“. This Typograph seems to have spent all afternoon drawing this label. At the first cursory glance through the F-hole, one can even briefly wonder if it isn’t a copper engraving (it isn’t). The double headed eagle with a crown floating above the two heads is the heraldic animal of the Hapsburg's (Posch’s employer). Normally I would expect the eagle to clutch a sword in one claw, and an orb in the other. Unfortunately this label is slightly crumpled on the lower right had side so that one has difficulty to make out exactly what it is clutching in it’s right claw. The heraldic animal of Austria is to this day the double headed eagle, although after the first word war, they swapped his sword/orb out for a hammer and sickle, which it still is.

Each Holy Roman Emperor had his own variant of the "imperial arms" (imperial eagle combined with coat of arms on the breast).  This particular variant has the Scepter of Austria in its left claw, belongs to Leopold I of Hapsburg who reigned from 1657-1705. 

Later (subsequent rulers) the Scepter moves to the eagle's right claw (with the sword) and Orb is seen in the eagle's left claw.

As such the imperial arms can serve as a rough guide to dating an instrument if date illegible or help determine authenticity of a label.

The Austrian Crown Jewels (crown, orb, and scepter) are displayed at Imperial Treasury Vienna:

https://www.kaiserliche-schatzkammer.at/en/

[Gtone]

Thanks Jacob.

There was a reference in a paper I found awhile ago about Posch family.

I don't know the authors sources but I'll post a link and the text below,

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/295803008_New_facts_on_the_biographies_of_the_lute_maker_and_musician_families_Posch_and_Stadlmann

"New facts on the biographies of the lute maker and musician families Posch and Stadlmann"

B. Darmstädter

The goals of this article are three-fold: Firstly, to close up the gap in the OMeA documents concerning the court instrument makers and assistants which has existed since the mid-20th century and dealt with the period between 1705 and 1790. Secondly, to continue to complete the biographies of instrument makers who were active in Vienna, especially those whose instruments were subsequently absorbed into the collections of the Kunsthistorisches Museum. And thirdly, to clarify historical aspects relating to collection items of the Sammlung Alter Musikinstrumente (Collection of Ancient Instruments). Some remarks should also be made concerning those contents of the article of a secondary nature. Social conditions under which the court instrument makers in the 18th century lived and worked are covered in the article. Also, the history of the Vienna Court Orchestra in the 1gth century is expanded upon. Lastly, it contains discussion of details regarding the weaknesses of the "Society of Musicians" (Tonkünstler-Societät). The article contains some highly relevant research findings. Johann Lazarus Fux already acted as apprentice lute maker to his father-in-law Anton Posch as early as 1710. Anton Stephan Posch, who was the son of Anton Posch from his first marriage, was named apprentice lute maker to his father in 1719 and followed Johann Lazarus Fux. Ignaz Stadlmann, who in 1732/33 appears as Franz Stadlmann in the "Obersthofmeisteramt" records (erroneously?), was adopted from 1733 on as violin scholar with a stipend of 360 forms, progressing three years later to the status of "real violinist" with the same payment. Only after the death of Ferdinand Woller in the summer of 1736 were financial resources freed up that enabled Stadlmann's salary to be raised in January 1737 by 140 to 500 forms. Michael (Ignaz) Stadlmann was born on 17th January 1746; his father was the court violinist Ignaz Stadlmann, who was born in 1717. Anton Stephan Posch sustained severe injuries from an accident - his travel carriage overturned during a court journey back to Vienna from Kaliste (Gollitsch) - and subsequently died horn these injuries in 1749. Catharina Posch, widow of Anton Stephan Posch, aimed at marrying Franz Anton Weiß an apprentice violin maker at Leidolf. This would also have meant financial security for her family, no payments necessary on the part of the court, and utilisation of the Posch workshop in the court quarters. In the course of re-filling the post of court lute maker made vacant by the death of Anton Stephan Posch, Weiß encountered two other men, Johann Joseph Stadlmann and Michael Andreas Pärtl. The court favoured Stadlmann due to his craftsmanship and the fact that he had already sworn the citizen's oath. An interesting development can be seen in the way that Stadlmann in the course of the application continuously improved the financial payment to the Posch widow: he waived the charge made for lute strings introduced by Posch, and declared his willingness to apply for no pay rise in future. As instrument maker Michael (Ignaz) Stadlmann was enjoined from entering the "Society of Musicians" and hence the granting of the court title ensuring post employment benefits was refused. Consequently he tried to gain a foothold as 3rd contrabassist in the court orchestra to effect the acceptance in the "Society of Musicians". Since this position was not a regular one his joining was rejected again. Not until innumberable interferences - amongst others of musicdirector Earl Ferdinand Kuffstein - the award of the court musician's title was achieved in 1798, whereas Stadimann's low salary of 2 fl. per work assignment remained untouched but fortunately the payment of the pension was assured.

[Gtone]

11 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

 

 

The back is of 2 pieces of lightly flamed maple. The flames go very lightly uphill from left to right right across the instrument. I have seen this phenomenon quite often on old instruments (notably with Stainer). It can be achieved by turning one half of a book matched back upside down, before joining it.

Is this an example of this particular reverse book match?

 

 

[jacobsaunders]

7 hours ago, Gtone said:

Thanks Jacob.

There was a reference in a paper I found awhile ago about Posch family.

I don't know the authors sources but I'll post a link and the text below,

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/295803008_New_facts_on_the_biographies_of_the_lute_maker_and_musician_families_Posch_and_Stadlmann

"New facts on the biographies of the lute maker and musician families Posch and Stadlmann"

B. Darmstädter

The goals of this article are three-fold: Firstly, to close up the gap in the OMeA documents concerning the court instrument makers and assistants which has existed since the mid-20th century and dealt with the period between 1705 and 1790. Secondly, to continue to complete the biographies of instrument makers who were active in Vienna, especially those whose instruments were subsequently absorbed into the collections of the Kunsthistorisches Museum. And thirdly, to clarify historical aspects relating to collection items of the Sammlung Alter Musikinstrumente (Collection of Ancient Instruments). Some remarks should also be made concerning those contents of the article of a secondary nature. Social conditions under which the court instrument makers in the 18th century lived and worked are covered in the article. Also, the history of the Vienna Court Orchestra in the 1gth century is expanded upon. Lastly, it contains discussion of details regarding the weaknesses of the "Society of Musicians" (Tonkünstler-Societät). The article contains some highly relevant research findings. Johann Lazarus Fux already acted as apprentice lute maker to his father-in-law Anton Posch as early as 1710. Anton Stephan Posch, who was the son of Anton Posch from his first marriage, was named apprentice lute maker to his father in 1719 and followed Johann Lazarus Fux. Ignaz Stadlmann, who in 1732/33 appears as Franz Stadlmann in the "Obersthofmeisteramt" records (erroneously?), was adopted from 1733 on as violin scholar with a stipend of 360 forms, progressing three years later to the status of "real violinist" with the same payment. Only after the death of Ferdinand Woller in the summer of 1736 were financial resources freed up that enabled Stadlmann's salary to be raised in January 1737 by 140 to 500 forms. Michael (Ignaz) Stadlmann was born on 17th January 1746; his father was the court violinist Ignaz Stadlmann, who was born in 1717. Anton Stephan Posch sustained severe injuries from an accident - his travel carriage overturned during a court journey back to Vienna from Kaliste (Gollitsch) - and subsequently died horn these injuries in 1749. Catharina Posch, widow of Anton Stephan Posch, aimed at marrying Franz Anton Weiß an apprentice violin maker at Leidolf. This would also have meant financial security for her family, no payments necessary on the part of the court, and utilisation of the Posch workshop in the court quarters. In the course of re-filling the post of court lute maker made vacant by the death of Anton Stephan Posch, Weiß encountered two other men, Johann Joseph Stadlmann and Michael Andreas Pärtl. The court favoured Stadlmann due to his craftsmanship and the fact that he had already sworn the citizen's oath. An interesting development can be seen in the way that Stadlmann in the course of the application continuously improved the financial payment to the Posch widow: he waived the charge made for lute strings introduced by Posch, and declared his willingness to apply for no pay rise in future. As instrument maker Michael (Ignaz) Stadlmann was enjoined from entering the "Society of Musicians" and hence the granting of the court title ensuring post employment benefits was refused. Consequently he tried to gain a foothold as 3rd contrabassist in the court orchestra to effect the acceptance in the "Society of Musicians". Since this position was not a regular one his joining was rejected again. Not until innumberable interferences - amongst others of musicdirector Earl Ferdinand Kuffstein - the award of the court musician's title was achieved in 1798, whereas Stadimann's low salary of 2 fl. per work assignment remained untouched but fortunately the payment of the pension was assured.

Thank-you very much for your link. I had relied heavily on the work of Frau Darmstätter already, although I used that which she published (in the German language) on the web site of the Kunsthistorischen Museum, which I linked to in the first post of this thread. I wasn’t aware that she had published much the same elsewhere in English. You will realise yourself that it is difficult to summarise so much material when trying to write an essay on Posch himself

 

[jacobsaunders]

7 hours ago, Gtone said:

Is this an example of this particular reverse book match?

 

 

Yes, or an upside down book match

[Gtone]

Thanks again Jacob.Very interesting.

[Strad O Various Jr.]

Here's a fleabay Posch, what do you think, Jacob??

https://www.ebay.com/itm/204502291121?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-172297-433301-2&mkcid=4&mkscid=101&itemid=204502291121&targetid=&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=604202317&mkgroupid=1228155541430323&rlsatarget=&abcId=&merchantid=51291&msclkid=b2f349d5b0f0128f3b8e21e5332dfd7e

[jacobsaunders]

3 hours ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Here's a fleabay Posch, what do you think, Jacob??

https://www.ebay.com/itm/204502291121?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-172297-433301-2&mkcid=4&mkscid=101&itemid=204502291121&targetid=&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=604202317&mkgroupid=1228155541430323&rlsatarget=&abcId=&merchantid=51291&msclkid=b2f349d5b0f0128f3b8e21e5332dfd7e

A usual with a stolen label

[Pen]

Thank you for an informative post as always Jacob.

Would it be possible to share the side view and/or the measurements of the violin?

I am particularly interested in the arching around the middle bout.

[jacobsaunders]

On 5/24/2025 at 5:29 PM, Pen said:

Would it be possible to share the side view and/or the measurements of the violin?

I hope this helps. Which measurements did you want?

[JacksonMaberry]

That's a super fine fiddle, and a great write up as always. Thank you. 

[Pen]

Thank you very much for the photo, Jacob.

A silhouette with meticulousness and elegance it has.

I would appreciate the UB, MB and LB with calliper if possible.

[jacobsaunders]

I don't have a caliper big enough to measure that,

but measured with a tape measure over the arching is:

170mm/116mm/206mm

[Pen]

Thank you very much.

Seems to be having the balance that I like.

Thank you for sharing the violin and the wonderful writing!