Does this price seem reasonable?

[Dwight Brown]

I hesitate to post this and I have very kind feelings for Shar. They have given me nothing but stellar service and I have done business with them for almost 50 years. Please do not make this about them. Mr. Matsuda was a fine maker and I have been aware of his instruments for forty years or so. I own a 2002 Del Gesu model violin of his that I consider myself very fortunate to own. I was kind of shocked to see some email in my box this morning that lead me to this. I feel like I have not been paying attention. Mr. Matsuda was very kind to me when I needed help with my violin (completely my fault I’m an idiot!). Just wondering what the assembled think.

 

https://www.sharmusic.com/products/tetsuo-matsuda-violin-chicago-1990?utm_source=Klaviyo&utm_medium=campaign&utm_campaign=FID VIP Email - Matsuda%2C Croen%2C Juzek%2C Durrschmidt&_kx=vSaeypdV5Csv9Id8xsMV15oPk6d09RJ-Ko_3_NLQWGQ.U3Fxzw

[GeorgeH]

Did he antique his labels like this one?

[martin swan]

[jacobsaunders]

Seems extortionately expensive to me

[Davide Sora]

10 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Seems extortionately expensive to me

Why? Just curious.

[Victor Roman]

It's a lot of money, for sure. I hope it also sounds $35k. Could anybody point to a recording on Youtube ?

[Victor Roman]

12 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

Why? Just curious.

Not replying for Mr. Saunders but in my opinion prices of new ( Master ? ) violins have somehow lost contact with reality. (Am not saying or advocating a maker should not charge whatever he likes. )  In this present case I wonder if the instrument is not also valued as a collectable. Possible ?  

 

[CantPlayChaconne]

There is a 2013 violin by Tetsuo Matsuda presently in the Tarisio NY Auction

Estimate: $8,000 - $12,000

Current high bid (1 day in) exceeds that, at $13,000.

I guess that would put it around $26,000 retail?

[Victor Roman]

3 minutes ago, CantPlayChaconne said:

Current high bid (1 day in) exceeds that, at $13,000.

I guess that would put it around $26,000 retail?

Is that some sort of "rule" ? How does it work ?

[CantPlayChaconne]

2 minutes ago, Victor Roman said:

Is that some sort of "rule" ? How does it work ?

When I bought my violin, I came prepared with a list of all past auction prices for violins by the same maker. 

The shop assured me that the retail price was 2x the auction price, plus a generous annual inflation factor of 5% or so

I choose to believe this is true to maintain my sanity.

[martin swan]

9 minutes ago, Victor Roman said:

Not replying for Mr. Saunders but in my opinion prices of new ( Master ? ) violins have somehow lost contact with reality. (Am not saying or advocating a maker should not charge whatever he likes. )  In this present case I wonder if the instrument is not also valued as a collectable. Possible ?  

 

One thing that has become very clear in the last few years, what with COVID belt-tightening amongst professional musicians and the huge inflation in old Italian instruments, is that young professionals looking for a career workhorse are increasingly choosing new or recently made instruments.

Of course the result of this is that they are getting more expensive!

A Matsuda isn't sexy like a Gregg Alf, Sam Z or Stephane von Baehr but he had some important clients and he had access to some great del Gesus to copy.

[jacobsaunders]

45 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

Why? Just curious.

I would expect something like a Geissenhof for that sort of price

[martin swan]

13 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I would expect something like a Geissenhof for that sort of price

I just found one Geissenhof for sale at around $56k ...

[Blank face]

21 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I would expect something like a Geissenhof for that sort of price

 

6 minutes ago, martin swan said:

I just found one Geissenhof for sale at around $56k ...

With the Dollar crashing downwards and import costs skyrocketing upwards this sounds quite reasonable to me.

[martin swan]

Actually it's 50k Euros, with a dealership in Munich

[Blank face]

2 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Actually it's 50k Euros, with a dealership in Munich

So what would an US buyer pay for it after all?

[Jeffrey Holmes]

W. H. Lee (Chicago) has a 2020 violin listed.  You could call and ask the listing Price.  

I recall Tetsuo made his instruments in/for the W. H. Lee shop (prior to going independent). That's where I met him in the early 80s. Later his instruments were marketed through Bein & Fushi.  I believe his relationship with them ended sometime in the early 2000s.

It can sometimes be a bit difficult to keep current with pricing for the contemporary makers instruments who have recently passed away. It can take  some time before the prices stabilize (realize consistent sales on the retail market).

Can't speak for Shar (and haven't for decades), but If I were considering selling that instrument I'd confirm recent retail sales just as I would if I were appraising it. I believe that's the best way to be fair to both the consigner (if there is one) and the buyer.

[martin swan]

8 minutes ago, Blank face said:

So what would an US buyer pay for it after all?

the retail price plus the current blanket tariff of 10% so about $60k

[Don Noon]

1 hour ago, CantPlayChaconne said:

There is a 2013 violin by Tetsuo Matsuda presently in the Tarisio NY Auction

Estimate: $8,000 - $12,000

Current high bid (1 day in) exceeds that, at $13,000.

I guess that would put it around $26,000 retail?

Also on that page, to the right, you can find:  The auction record for this maker is $25,200 in Mar 2025, for a Cello.

Then, if you log in for the auction history, you can find $19,200 last year is the highest auction price for a violin.  Perhaps Matsuda is trending lately?

[Victor Roman]

48 minutes ago, martin swan said:

One thing that has become very clear in the last few years, what with COVID belt-tightening amongst professional musicians and the huge inflation in old Italian instruments, is that young professionals looking for a career workhorse are increasingly choosing new or recently made instruments.

Of course the result of this is that they are getting more expensive!

A Matsuda isn't sexy like a Gregg Alf, Sam Z or Stephane von Baehr but he had some important clients and he had access to some great del Gesus to copy.

Thank you, Mr. Swan - I'll try wrap my head around it... 

I can't say I am poor but nonetheless for an old codger such as myself $35k is A LOT of money. I hope the new owner will get it's worth. I saw a lot of demoes on YT for new violins, priced within that range and all I would say is that they surely won't be bought for their "tone". Not that there aren't exceptions.

 

[Jeffrey Holmes]

1 hour ago, Don Noon said:

Also on that page, to the right, you can find:  The auction record for this maker is $25,200 in Mar 2025, for a Cello.

Auction prices can be vey different than retail prices, especially for modern makers, so I'd take those with a large grain of salt.  I believe this retail prices (based on memory) before he passed away 3 years ago was around 25K for a fiddle. He was prolific, so there are plenty of post mortem retail sales out there if someone is interested enough to check.

[CantPlayChaconne]

1 minute ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

Auction prices can be vey different than retail prices, especially for modern makers, so I'd take those with a large grain of salt.  I believe this retail prices (based on memory) before he passed away 3 years ago were around 25K for a fiddle. He was prolific, so there are plenty of post mortem retail sales out there if someone is interested enough to check.

Is it true that violins generally retail for twice what they go for in an auction?

[Blank face]

25 minutes ago, martin swan said:

the retail price plus the current blanket tariff of 10% so about $60k

Plus VAT in some states, and only as long as Mr Trump doesn't change his mind. So a bit more than half of a Geissenhof (in a rather worn out state as it looks) for the Matsuda.

[martin swan]

14 minutes ago, CantPlayChaconne said:

Is it true that violins generally retail for twice what they go for in an auction?

No - that seems very arse about face ...

Much of what gets into auction is reject dealer stock, so it sells for what it's worth, more or less.

Really great examples of a particular maker can go for quite a lot higher than the realistic retail price because two "savvy" buyers are convinced they're getting a bargain and slug it out.

Genuine consignments, family heirlooms, estate/probate sales etc are quite rare, but in these cases things can sell for well below retail. However, now that all auctions are online and highly visible, the days of finding sleepers are pretty much over.

There is certainly no rule of thumb, and auction price information is pretty meaningless unless you know the condition, the model, the size etc. I suppose there are some rules/guidelines that become apparent after years of study, but what happens to Collin-Mézins at auction is not the same as what happens to Cerutis.

 

[GeorgeH]

19 minutes ago, CantPlayChaconne said:

Is it true that violins generally retail for twice what they go for in an auction?

That may have been a rule of thumb pre-internet live auctions with mostly dealers bidding, but now retail buyers are bidding and the relationship between retail prices and auction prices is no longer pseudo-linear. Also, auction historical price numbers don’t tell any of the story of the condition, authenticity, provenance, etc. of the lots.