Getting Violin Appraisal Papers in Paris

[axline3]

Probably going for violin papers while in Paris, maybe at Raffin, for this violin which I believe is from the shop of Giorgio Gatti, Turin, 1912. Pics attached are not so accurate in color and were taken before the violin was in my possession. The angled view of the scroll shows the color best. I think the violin will end up as "attributed to" , because the color and woods are very different from most later violins by Gatti.  The stamp and its placements are exact, and several other things are right. I could find no online, Tarisio or other, examples from this period of 1912..which was just after the World Exposition in Turin. My questions concern getting papers, something I never tried before. Is there a way to avoid spending too much...for example  would an appraiser give a preliminary opinion ? Thanks in advance for any advice...

Edited April 30, 2025 by axline3
typo

[martin swan]

Raffin would not be a good choice since they only certify bows.

You could show the violin to Vatelot Rampal but I would save yourself disappointment. It will only cost $50 or so to have Dmitry Gindin tell you that it’s not authentic.

https://dmitrygindin.com/online-identification-and-valuation.php

[axline3]

I would be surprised to learn that a stamp would be faked down  the slightest detail. Wouldn't that be quite expensive? 

[Wood Butcher]

Not if your friend's brother, Igor, works at an engineering workshop.

[axline3]

The fake stamp idea doesn't,  to me, make sense with the rest of the violin. The scroll is beautifully carved  more than most, and a good match. If I may indulge speculation, who would have a perfect stamp made, be able to carve a scroll like that just like a Gatti, and then use that for a violin that isn't  vaguely the same color? (and moreover, the varnish is remarkable and unlike anything I have seen...and there is more that will make it hard to convince me it is not somehow connected to Gatti.) I will maintain that it is a shop violin made for some specific purpose, maybe not by Gatti himself. 

[Wood Butcher]

I'm not really commenting on the instrument, just saying that stamps were maybe not so hard to have made in the past, as you might think. They used to be fairly common, with many uses.

[martin swan]

I would send photos to Dmitry as I suggested.

I can’t see any relationship between that scroll and Gatti’s work - we are looking with very different eyes.

[jacobsaunders]

looks like a "usual"

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, axline3 said:

(and moreover, the varnish is remarkable and unlike anything I have seen..

May I suggest that you get out and about a bit more?

[lFred]

The stamp it s obviously wrong in all possible way.
I don't like the label
I don't like the pen used here on that Label
The handwriting seems forced
I'm with martin for the scroll.
As for the violin .. make photos small enough end everything looks the same
 

Quote

I'm not really commenting on the instrument, just saying that stamps were maybe not so hard to have made in the past, as you might think. They used to be fairly common, with many uses.

who said the stamps are old?

Quote

I would send photos to Dmitry as I suggested.

I disagree , I would make sens to make appointment, in Cremona with Eric & Bruce , in London with Florian and why not in Paris with Rampal as well. Only with the instrument in hand one could appreciate it's true nature
 

[martin swan]

Don't forget Chris Reuning in Boston ...surely worth the trip?

[Blank face]

Theoretically that’s the right approach, but travelling for the purpose of investigating this violin is „throwing good money after the bad“.

[axline3]

Thank you for all replies, especially from the experts here...

I agree I should post better photos that will better capture the color and varnish...will try...

Re my experience   I have a lot, and I am a violinist as well as a minor restorer  within limits. I have done many successful re-graduations and have been a good friend of a very knowledgeable luthier for years.

However, I realize it is easy to be wrong on instruments, and this may not be at all what I have thought.

In any case , if this has nothing to do with Gatti, I am wondering what might have really occurred here. The violin is different from anything I have handled..maybe close to a  Chanot in the hands to play, but bigger. It is also the best sounding violin I have tried in my life and there have been a lot.

So my question would be what might have occurred. Someone grabbed a great violin, took off the top, and stamped it Gatti, with a label  for which there are now no references, from the period? If this is a good guess, I think now the question would be, if the violin is an important something else , whom to show it to? Also what does it do to the value of good violin to have been the material for a fake?

[martin swan]

In my opinion and that of pretty much everyone else here, this violin is a regular Markneukirchen instrument which has been tarted up  with brands and a label for its big night out.

That such a violin might sound spectacular should be no surprise, MK instruments can be great - Gattis can sometimes be very disappointing, though I remember one that I shouldn’t have let get away …

[stern]

Best to start with Dmitry Gindin $90 US and you don't have to travel anywhere and he usually responds the same day you send him 8 good photos. All the info is on his website.

[axline3]

2 hours ago, martin swan said:

In my opinion and that of pretty much everyone else here, this violin is a regular Markneukirchen instrument which has been tarted up  with brands and a label for its big night out.

That such a violin might sound spectacular should be no surprise, MK instruments can be great - Gattis can sometimes be very disappointing, though I remember one that I shouldn’t have let get away …

Interesting about the Gatti sound...the recordings I have heard were not something I would go after..but  still the set up might change a lot...

 

[Foldejal]

22 hours ago, axline3 said:

The scroll is beautifully carved  more than most

Is the scroll really beautifully carved? To me, it doesn't look so from the photos.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Enjoy researching the fiddle, BUT, I join those who have already commented in not seeing it as a Gatti.  

If you'd like to research the maker yourself, there is an instrument illustrated in Eric Blot's book on Piedmont makers with dates (1911, I believe) very close to the date on your label.

In the future, it would be helpful when making an inquiry to have better, larger, images lit slightly better.

For myself, in addition to the short list of details IFred & Martin provided, if Gatti's small locating pins that he often used are there, I wouldn't be able to see them.  Nor can I see the fluting (or lack thereof) on the lower f hole wing, outline, purling, etc, etc.

If the fiddle sounds great to you, that's wonderful.

Below are a couple images of a Gatti I had open several years ago (illustrating label of this period and brands in relatively close proximity to the label, the hand written numbers on the label, and a device (I assume) was installed to add rigidity to the chin area of the lower rib (that appears to be original, but that is an assumption.

 

 

 

[lFred]

@Stern and @Foldejal ..
4 time enlarge of the OP and a Gatti

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Yup...  Looks worse as as gets bigger!  :-)

[axline3]

Here are better pics for color. Only the first one is really close.

[lFred]

so we can add not gatti's purflung and edge wordk either to the list.
 

3 hours ago, martin swan said:

In my opinion and that of pretty much everyone else here, this violin is a regular Markneukirchen instrument which has been tarted up  with brands and a label for its big night out.

 

[lFred]

23 hours ago, axline3 said:

I would be surprised to learn that a stamp would be faked down  the slightest detail. Wouldn't that be quite expensive? 

about 50 bucks

[Foldejal]

1 hour ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

Yup...  Looks worse as as gets bigger!  :-)

Well, at least both violins have two f-holes and ebony tailpiece with one finetuner

[axline3]

Hello , Thank you again for the comments. 

Does anyone know if there are ever examples of "ascribed to" , or shop violins for this maker? I never contended that this instrument looks like his certified violins  .

Very interesting to learn about the guide pieces he used in some  instruments.