Baroque acoustic spaces for violin

[violins88]

NI find that I prefer church-like acoustics for Bach pieces. I realize that live spaces may cover weaknesses in a violin. I would like to hear my current violin recorded, preferably in a live room. In my dreams I would like it to sound like this:

Saints Peter and Paul church in Zurich.

FYI: “In terms of acoustics, especially high-pitched sounds, as indicated by Navarro and Sendra [1], the conditions in Baroque churches improved with respect to the earlier Renaissance churches, mainly due to ornamentation. The mouldings, pilasters, entablatures, cornices, capitals, wooden altarpieces and other decorative elements contribute to the better diffusion of high-frequency sounds, while the larger side chapels result in a greater diffusion of low-pitched sounds. Thus, they show that the extensive ornamentation used in churches during the 17th and 18th centuries, especially in large religious celebrations, results in modified characteristics for the acoustic absorption of the walls, accommodating musical and choral performances.” From 

Acoustics in Baroque Catholic Church Spaces 

by 

Enedina Alberdi

 ¹, 

Miguel Galindo

 ^2,*, 

Angel L. León-Rodríguez

 ¹and 

Jesús León

 ¹

Anastasiya Petryshak plays a modern violin by Bologna's violin maker Roberto Regazzi.

[Brian in Texas]

Nice find, that's some perfect sounding reverb.

[David Burgess]

A lot the computerized recording programs can add a variable amount of reverb in their post-processing options.

[Victor Roman]

7 hours ago, violins88 said:

NI find that I prefer church-like acoustics for Bach pieces. I realize that live spaces may cover weaknesses in a violin. I would like to hear my current violin recorded, preferably in a live room. In my dreams I would like it to sound like this:

Here is a different perspective. Can you hear the rather large differences ?

 

[Victor Roman]

1 hour ago, Brian in Texas said:

Nice find, that's some perfect sounding reverb.

Is it ?

Well, here is another take :

 

 

 

[outofnames]

2 hours ago, David Burgess said:

A lot the computerized recording programs can add a variable amount of reverb in their post-processing options.

Yes, and I can’t help but think that a lot of people that post video of themselves playing violin on YouTube use doctored sound to add reverb rather than sharing the true acoustic sound of their playing.

Either that or I’m a horrible player by sound comparison.

Both statements have merit.

[Blank face]

1 hour ago, outofnames said:

can’t help but think that a lot of people that post video of themselves playing violin on YouTube use doctored sound to add reverb rather than sharing the true acoustic sound of their playing.

What’s the „true“ acoustic sound of your violin considering that each of the five or more different microphone constructions ( leaving out the enormous differences in quality) produces completely different spectral distributions and that room reverb and echoes are also dependent on of factors like one or two directional recording, distances, spheres and so on?

 

[violins88]

Has someone defined a set-up of a specific recording arrangement for recording violins? I think the bridge tap protocol has been defined. Joe Curtin? Oberlin people? George Stopanni?

I imagine a stable, consistently available lab somewhere. You take your violin there. Its bridge taps are recorded, along with thousands of others. Famous violins and others. This data would eventually be useful.

My version of this set-up would be a padded room with 10 microphones. Can we get a volunteer to design it? Then another volunteer to write the plan so that a billionaire who is interested can fund the project?  Anyone?

 

I know some of you are tired of watching too many YouTube videos and tired of watching your 401k go down the toilet. This project would actually be useful.

Wouldn’t it?

[violins88]

Rache Podger, Baroque violin. This one also touches me.

You can see one mic,near her, to the right.
 

[Randall The Restorer]

Wood and plaster definitely make for better acoustics than stone.

If you like this type of sound, then get thee to a small space with the same building materials - maybe some draperies and wall tapestries.

Also, an empty old pub or wooden ship with wood panelled ceilings and walls, wood floors, and wood furniture - all of different species can be a sonic delight.

The best performance I attended was in a humble church building of historic Colonial Williamsburg: Baroque music on Baroque instruments; both 18th century creations and instruments newly made in the lutherie shop of the living museum.

If you are able to attend a rehearsal and a sold-out performance, you can compare the sonic effects of all those human bodies. 
 

[Victor Roman]

2 hours ago, violins88 said:

Rache Podger, Baroque violin. This one also touches me.

You can see one mic,near her, to the right.
 

Wonderfully talented player !

[Victor Roman]

1 hour ago, Randall The Restorer said:

Wood and plaster definitely make for better acoustics than stone.

If you like this type of sound, then get thee to a small space with the same building materials - maybe some draperies and wall tapestries.

The best performance I attended was in a humble church building of historic Colonial Williamsburg: Baroque music on Baroque instruments; both 18th century creations and instruments newly made in the lutherie shop of the living museum.

If you are able to attend a rehearsal and a sold-out performance, you can compare the sonic effects of all those human bodies.

Nothing kills sounds better than draperies, tapestries, curtains and .... public in winter. I take it you are not a recording engineer ???

[Victor Roman]

2 hours ago, violins88 said:

Has someone defined a set-up of a specific recording arrangement for recording violins?

RCA had something long ago. Was good when it worked. 

[Randall The Restorer]

3 minutes ago, Victor Roman said:

Nothing kills sounds better than draperies, tapestries, curtains and .... public in winter. I take it you are not a recording engineer ???

Judicious application and careful positioning of textiles play a major role in live performance spaces and dedicated recording studios. 
I am not a recording engineer - but I have been recorded in, and broadcast from, world class studios in Toronto.

Randy

[Urban Luthier]

One key problem here is our inconsistent frame of reference for judging recordings. Many lack the playback equipment to make an informed decision. What sounds fine on Apple AirPods (I have them and enjoy using them), may not sound the same as listening through a studio reference headphones like the Sennheiser HD600 (a reference in many recording studios for over a generation). The latter gives one a much more accurate FR from 300 Hz to 10kHz where are ears are most sensitive. 

As for microphone placement techniques - the Blumlein pair has been used to good effect for classical recordings

 

 

[LCF]

8 hours ago, David Burgess said:

A lot the computerized recording programs can add a variable amount of reverb in their post-processing options.

It is possible to go to an interesting space, record a sharp noise like a pistol shot or s clapboard, and the echos which follow at different locations, and use those recordings to create virtual reverberation via a process known as convolution --- the impulse response is convolved with a sound recording. It can be done in (almost) real time with a small amount of latency.  Reverb and latency are intertwined anyway. As far as digital recordings go you cannot tell the difference from a genuine locational recording and you have the option of doing this from the different locations processed, combining them,  or creating a virtual acoustic space and synthesising its impulse response and applying that. 

 

PS.

Reverb is a trivial application of this pricess. It can also be used to emulate various microphones, speaker systems and instruments eg to make your violin sound more like a heavy metal guitar solo. If it doesn't already.

[LCF]

Sorry for typos. Won't edit it again!

[Blank face]

5 hours ago, LCF said:

As far as digital recordings go you cannot tell the difference from a genuine locational recording and you have the option of doing this from the different locations processed, combining them,  or creating a virtual acoustic space and synthesising its impulse response and applying that. 

It isn’t even complicated to apply such effects to a recording, there are enough tools available (a lot of them for free), to enhance or create any combination of reverb or delay.

Therefore it’s very naive to assume that the above embedded professional recordings reflect a “natural“ reverb of any real place.

[outofnames]

15 hours ago, Blank face said:

What’s the „true“ acoustic sound of your violin considering that each of the five or more different microphone constructions ( leaving out the enormous differences in quality) produces completely different spectral distributions and that room reverb and echoes are also dependent on of factors like one or two directional recording, distances, spheres and so on?

 

I’m thinking of videos I’ve seen where people are playing outside yet the reverb and acoustics make it sound like they’re in a cathedral.  If they’ve electronically doctored their sound I become suspect of how much clean up they’ve done.

The analogy is some singers using autotune and then you hear them live and they’re terrible.

[LCF]

6 hours ago, Blank face said:

It isn’t even complicated to apply such effects to a recording, there are enough tools available (a lot of them for free), to enhance or create any combination of reverb or delay.

Therefore it’s very naive to assume that the above embedded professional recordings reflect a “natural“ reverb of any real place.

Reverberation has similarity to certain types of photographic blurring, and de-blurring algorithms sometimes use deconvolution techniques. Conditions apply ... You can also use these techniques to 'de-verb' or extract other information from audio files.

If you play around with recordings, adding different reverb 'environments' it raises awareness of how reverberation affects perception. It's a bit weird.

[Jacobus Drainer]

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa8jP2J8ut4

[LCF]

Yes. That's what violins really sound like.

[David Burgess]

2 hours ago, LCF said:

Yes. That's what violins really sound like.

Is the microphone disguised as a peach? I think I recognize the sound of a peachophone.

[Victor Roman]

2 hours ago, LCF said:

Yes. That's what violins really sound like.

Unfortunately..

[Victor Roman]

42 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Is the microphone disguised as a peach? I think I recognize the sound of a peachophone.

No, I think it's a potatophone. Not much else would explain the... fine musicianship.