Saxon graduations

[nathan slobodkin]

Without getting into morality of regraduation, what tools do people use for graduating a back with the ribs (and fingerboard) on? I have an auction purchased MK viiolin,  nicely made but with a back thickness of 6.5-3.5mm and a belly over 5mm. Obviously the top is no problem but there is no way to work on the back as one would do without the ribs and the FB compunds the problem. planes and scraper can certainly do the job but I was wondering if anyone who has done a lot of this kind of thing have come up with long handled planes or perhaps curved shank flate gouges which would make this less awkward.

While I'm at it, does anyone have any thoughts on what the heck this maker was thinking? I have seen this before where really skilled MK makers in the early 20th C. used these kind of grads. The instruments sound truly horrible and I can't imagine they ever did sound good by any standareds we would use today. Would gut strings have been a factor? Tone deafness? What on earth was the reasoning behind these sort of grads?

[Brian in Texas]

I think the reason behind cheap instruments with overly thick graduations is to withstand the abuse of careless youngsters.

[LCF]

My 2c : Leaving the fingerboard on will make it more difficult. When I used to do this (long ago) I mostly used a range of curved thick scrapers made from things like old plane blades and power hacksaw blades plus a small thumb plane in tge areas you could get to. A scraper made from a high carbon steel power hacksaw blade, ground with the edge almost square and used straight off the grinder is fairly vicious, like a mini-toothed plane.  Mostly I scraped areas away from the center, towards the blocks and the flanks.

 

 

 

[jacobsaunders]

38 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Without getting into morality of regraduation, what tools do people use for graduating a back with the ribs (and fingerboard) on? I have an auction purchased MK viiolin,  nicely made but with a back thickness of 6.5-3.5mm and a belly over 5mm. Obviously the top is no problem but there is no way to work on the back as one would do without the ribs and the FB compunds the problem. planes and scraper can certainly do the job but I was wondering if anyone who has done a lot of this kind of thing have come up with long handled planes or perhaps curved shank flate gouges which would make this less awkward.

While I'm at it, does anyone have any thoughts on what the heck this maker was thinking? I have seen this before where really skilled MK makers in the early 20th C. used these kind of grads. The instruments sound truly horrible and I can't imagine they ever did sound good by any standareds we would use today. Would gut strings have been a factor? Tone deafness? What on earth was the reasoning behind these sort of grads?

Have you seen the graduation maps in the Biddulpp Del Gesu book?

[nathan slobodkin]

10 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Have you seen the graduation maps in the Biddulpp Del Gesu book?

I have but those sound good this one didn't.

 

31 minutes ago, LCF said:

My 2c : Leaving the fingerboard on will make it more difficult. When I used to do this (long ago) I mostly used a range of curved thick scrapers made from things like old plane blades and power hacksaw blades plus a small thumb plane in tge areas you could get to. A scraper made from a high carbon steel power hacksaw blade, ground with the edge almost square and used straight off the grinder is fairly vicious, like a mini-toothed plane.  Mostly I scraped areas away from the center, towards the blocks and the flanks.

 

 

 

Using an awkwardly held scraper to remove 2mm. of wood sounds like a nightmare. I believe I have seen small planes with palm held handles which I think would be useful but can't remember where I saw them.

[Brad Dorsey]

I have always removed the fingerboard when I regraduate a back.  I wouldn't want to do it without removing the FB.  I use standard arching planes and scrapers. It's awkward to work between the ribs.  I set up a stop on my drill press, drill a bunch of holes partway through and plane until I reach the bottoms of the holes.

[match]

1 hour ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Using an awkwardly held scraper to remove 2mm. of wood sounds like a nightmare. I believe I have seen small planes with palm held handles which I think would be useful but can't remember where I saw them.

https://www.shop-schilbach.net/en/p/veritas-palm-plane?srsltid=AfmBOop_2YBZwTV1Wv8MOwSeUbcsApxT6HGQpbTrWFHxMPNW8T5GYIYxIws

[nathan slobodkin]

7 minutes ago, match said:

https://www.shop-schilbach.net/en/p/veritas-palm-plane?srsltid=AfmBOop_2YBZwTV1Wv8MOwSeUbcsApxT6HGQpbTrWFHxMPNW8T5GYIYxIws

That's them. Thanks

[nathan slobodkin]

2 hours ago, Brian in Texas said:

I think the reason behind cheap instruments with overly thick graduations is to withstand the abuse of careless youngsters.

The one's I am talking about are not cheaply made. Several that I have seen were made by people listed in the guild book as Master makers and look as good as Roths or Juzek master arts. These guys were up to something but I can't figure out what. Despite the existence of the heavy graduated Del Gesus I don't know of too many instruments with these kind of grads that sound anything but horrible.

[LCF]

2 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

I have but those sound good this one didn't.

 

Using an awkwardly held scraper to remove 2mm. of wood sounds like a nightmare. I believe I have seen small planes with palm held handles which I think would be useful but can't remember where I saw them.

Rough edged, slightly bevelled 0.1" thick HSS is not a delicate little scraper!

[LCF]

1 hour ago, nathan slobodkin said:

The one's I am talking about are not cheaply made. Several that I have seen were made by people listed in the guild book as Master makers and look as good as Roths or Juzek master arts. These guys were up to something but I can't figure out what. Despite the existence of the heavy graduated Del Gesus I don't know of too many instruments with these kind of grads that sound anything but horrible.

Perhaps it was a manufacturing decision to create a price gradation, to justify charging more for similar  instruments with more refined internals and a higher degree of finishing versus less for the common grade.  The quantities of these things that were produced is staggering so some version of 'the higher you get, the fewer' plus other mass production decisions make good marketing sense. 

Obviously it also shaves just a little bit of time off the making process  to be less precise. 

[Evan Smith]

https://www.harborfreight.com/contour-scraper-with-6-blades-57216.html

 

This works well for many things, the blades are stainless but properly sharpened they pull shavings.

 

 

The back part could be cut back a bit to allow for easier access to the area under the board, really no need to remove it at all.

 

[MarkBouquet]

I'd heard (can't remember where) that violins were supplied to resellers in a wood heavy condition, with the assumption that those resellers would finish the graduations as a part of the setup process. But many such resellers just shoveled them out the door without bothering to graduate. I myself had an old Markie where the top was not only extremely heavy, but also left in a very crude carved state on the inner surface, suggesting that it required finish carving and scraping, but it was left undone.

[Blank face]

6 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

These guys were up to something but I can't figure out what.

 

2 hours ago, MarkBouquet said:

I'd heard (can't remember where) that violins were supplied to resellers in a wood heavy condition, with the assumption that those resellers would finish the graduations as a part of the setup process.

You should free your mind from such considerations or myths. The system worked the way that vioins were delivered to the wholesaler who paid, by contracts, a (rather low) sum per piece or dozen, and didn't ever care (or tried out) how it "sounds", and sent it afterwards out to oversea. So the logic was make it look nice and do it as many and as fast as possible.

And as often noted before, what is written in books of the period about alleged "master makers" was sale propaganda and should be ignored.

[fiddlecollector]

Weren't a lot of modern Italian instruments regraduated as well. I would leave the back alone and concentrate on the top if you are determined to regraduate.

[LCF]

43 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

Weren't a lot of modern Italian instruments regraduated as well. I would leave the back alone and concentrate on the top if you are determined to regraduate.

The whole topic of regraduation is a can of worms but a typical "Usual" is also often a can of worms so I think the two cancel out somewhat. My experience was that thinning down some of the grossly thick backs as Nathan is, and cleaning up the roughly carved tops and fitting a bass bar plus attention to  neck and fingerboard and a setup turned them into usable student  instruments. But some of the earlier rougher ones -- too much horror, walk away, leave the poor things alone. Use them for authentic early folk music performances.

 

[Don Noon]

Just a few weeks ago I regraduated a thick inexpensive violin... but only the top.  The back wasn't quite as thick (5 - 3 mm), and because of the inconvenience of working on the back and also curiosity about what a thick back would do, I left it as-was.

I couldn't point out anything in particular in the result that was amiss or could be attributed to the back; it was fine.

One could also wonder what was Guarneri's reasoning behind the Cannone grads, especially the back, which are similar to the violin in question.  I also wonder what the limits are to the thickness of a back, and what in the sound/playability changes for the worse.

You might not be inclined for extra work and experimentation, but it would be interesting to regrad the top only, and put it back together to test and see if it's in need of regraduating the back.  

[Sammyo]

I remember reading - probably here somewhere - that the thicker front and (in particular) back were particularly found in US exports, the purpose being to increase the prospects of their surviving the journey. No idea whether that's true or whether they were intended to be regraduated on arrival.

[FiddleDoug]

14 hours ago, Evan Smith said:

https://www.harborfreight.com/contour-scraper-with-6-blades-57216.html

 

This works well for many things, the blades are stainless but properly sharpened they pull shavings.

 

 

The back part could be cut back a bit to allow for easier access to the area under the board, really no need to remove it at all.

 

Neat! I went and picked one of those up this afternoon. There's even a half round sharpening file stored in the handle. For $7.99 it's a deal!

[David Burgess]

21 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

While I'm at it, does anyone have any thoughts on what the heck this maker was thinking? I have seen this before where really skilled MK makers in the early 20th C. used these kind of grads. The instruments sound truly horrible and I can't imagine they ever did sound good by any standareds we would use today. Would gut strings have been a factor? Tone deafness? What on earth was the reasoning behind these sort of grads?

I think these instruments were made to conform to a target price, and not to please tonal connoisseurs. The typical retail buyer (like someone who bought a violin from a Sears catalogue) would have no idea what a really good violin sounded like, so it didn't matter.

[Evan Smith]

7 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

Neat! I went and picked one of those up this afternoon. There's even a half round sharpening file stored in the handle. For $7.99 it's a deal!

Ya it's pretty comfortable, I didn't know that a file was hidden in the handle, but there it is! I don't usually read instructions, don't want to appear stupid around the wife you know,,, she pretty easy to impress.

Evan below average.

[nathan slobodkin]

19 hours ago, Blank face said:

 

You should free your mind from such considerations or myths. The system worked the way that vioins were delivered to the wholesaler who paid, by contracts, a (rather low) sum per piece or dozen, and didn't ever care (or tried out) how it "sounds", and sent it afterwards out to oversea. So the logic was make it look nice and do it as many and as fast as possible.

And as often noted before, what is written in books of the period about alleged "master makers" was sale propaganda and should be ignored.

But what is written in the Markneukirchen guild book is not. I have a translated copy provided to me by the man who has the actual book from 1897 to 1942. There were actual master makers although I was surprised to see how many people are listed as violin makers without ever passing the masters exam.

[Blank face]

7 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

But what is written in the Markneukirchen guild book is not. I have a translated copy provided to me by the man who has the actual book from 1897 to 1942. There were actual master makers although I was surprised to see how many people are listed as violin makers without ever passing the masters exam.

The point is that, wether being a good master or not, they all used to work for the trade making violins from Schönbacher Schachteln (white boxes).

OTOH there are surely a lot of mislabelled "usual" as reknown masters like Paul Knorr and others out there, which could ruin their reputation.

Once more, I’m not believing in any of the fancy stories about made tough for shipping, for graduation by customers etc. It was all about working fast and cheap.

[Andreas Preuss]

On 4/5/2025 at 1:41 AM, nathan slobodkin said:

What on earth was the reasoning behind these sort of grads?

Indestructebility.

[LCF]

23 hours ago, Don Noon said:

Just a few weeks ago I regraduated a thick inexpensive violin... but only the top.  The back wasn't quite as thick (5 - 3 mm), and because of the inconvenience of working on the back and also curiosity about what a thick back would do, I left it as-was.

I couldn't point out anything in particular in the result that was amiss or could be attributed to the back; it was fine.

Probably a law of diminishing returns in operation here but to continue the experiment you could pull the top off again and rework the back. Stop just before you go too far