Varnish making... and Lake making

[M Alpert]

4 hours ago, Steve Voigt said:

Yes, oil soaps can make nice varnishes. This one is alizarin, with alum and lime.

 

 

2 hours ago, MikeC said:

ok,  I'm lost now.   What's an oil soap varnish and how do you make it?   Is there an old link here somewhere?   

Same here, lost. That looks beautiful!
@Steve Voigt

I think I get how to make the colored soap, that's pretty easy. But how do you get from there to the varnish? Or is it more trouble than it's worth? I think I remember Joe Robson saying it's better to dissolve the color in the rosin than in the oil?

Of course if you have a link or memory of a previous conversation, that could work too.. thanks!

[M Alpert]

21 hours ago, Steve Voigt said:

Yeah, sulfuric acid became the preferred catalyst for polymerized rosin in the 1940s, and it still is. It creates a black sludge that needs to be washed out, thoroughly.

In the 30s, they used chlorides (zinc, aluminum, tin) as catalysts. Those also need to be washed out. I didn’t comment earlier on the whole Flaveta discussion, but your mention of catalysts reminded me why I’m leery. I did  a bunch of experiments with his method, and got some nice colors, but I can’t make peace with the idea of using huge amounts of salts and then leaving the waste products in the varnish. What happens in 5, 10, or 20 years? I don’t know….

Interesting to hear your concerns about the catalyst. The test batch of the so-called "Flavetta method" that worked best had a very small amount of zinc chloride as a catalyst, added after the alizarin had dissolved in the hot varnish.

The proportions were about 60 G of rosin, 40 G oil, 5 G alizarin, and a pinch of zinc chloride.

My colleague later tried another batch using more zinc chloride to see if the color could be made more intense. It didn't seem to help much.

@LCF  I think this is what you meant when you said using a metal salt after dissolving the lake? Although I'm not really sure is Kremer's "pure" alizarin a lake or what...

Unfortunately I don't have much mad scientist varnish time at the moment. Hopefully later when summer comes! But I'm collecting suggestions for then, looking forward!

[LCF]

3 hours ago, M Alpert said:

Interesting to hear your concerns about the catalyst. The test batch of the so-called "Flavetta method" that worked best had a very small amount of zinc chloride as a catalyst, added after the alizarin had dissolved in the hot varnish.

The proportions were about 60 G of rosin, 40 G oil, 5 G alizarin, and a pinch of zinc chloride.

My colleague later tried another batch using more zinc chloride to see if the color could be made more intense. It didn't seem to help much.

Seems about right to me if the zinc ions are complexing the alizarin to the resin, or oil. You wouldn't need much

 

 

3 hours ago, M Alpert said:

@LCF  I think this is what you meant when you said using a metal salt after dissolving the lake? Although I'm not really sure is Kremer's "pure" alizarin a lake or what...

 

Alizarin is the actual dye molecule, one of several which are found in natural madder.  It gets confusing to say alizarin lake because that's what you get when you take alizarin, the pure dyestuff, and add it to the alum plus carbonate to make a lake pigment. So what Flavetta is saying is that as well as your method you can simply cook the lake pigment into varnish. Probably a different colour result.

So many experiments, so few lightning bolts ...

 

[Steve Voigt]

3 hours ago, M Alpert said:

 

Same here, lost. That looks beautiful!
@Steve Voigt

I think I get how to make the colored soap, that's pretty easy. But how do you get from there to the varnish? Or is it more trouble than it's worth? I think I remember Joe Robson saying it's better to dissolve the color in the rosin than in the oil?

Of course if you have a link or memory of a previous conversation, that could work too.. thanks!

Hi, the varnish is related to rosinates, but using linseed oil fatty acids instead of rosin as the soapstock. The usual name for this is linoleate, which kinda sounds like rosinate. I make a very concentrated linoleate and cook it into a varnish made from linseed oil and the heavily cooked rosin that was discussed earlier in this thread. The same thing can be done with rosinates. Michelman wrote about this in his book, in the chapter on alizarin.

And that is where I’d start, with Michelman’s book. You can get a digital copy on google play for a few bucks. He also discusses the oil soaps, though he did not see their potential.

Regarding Joe, his thing is what he calls “colored oil.” I don’t know how he makes it, but I’m pretty sure it’s not the same method I’m using. It’s beautiful stuff though.

 

[M Alpert]

4 hours ago, Steve Voigt said:

Hi, the varnish is related to rosinates, but using linseed oil fatty acids instead of rosin as the soapstock. The usual name for this is linoleate, which kinda sounds like rosinate. I make a very concentrated linoleate and cook it into a varnish made from linseed oil and the heavily cooked rosin that was discussed earlier in this thread. The same thing can be done with rosinates. Michelman wrote about this in his book, in the chapter on alizarin.

And that is where I’d start, with Michelman’s book. You can get a digital copy on google play for a few bucks. He also discusses the oil soaps, though he did not see their potential.

Regarding Joe, his thing is what he calls “colored oil.” I don’t know how he makes it, but I’m pretty sure it’s not the same method I’m using. It’s beautiful stuff though.

 

Great stuff, thanks! I'll have to go back to Michelman and try that. Gotta try some other rosinates too. So many varnish experiments, so little time!

Has the linoleate been worth it, in your opinion?

Gotta say, I'm pretty happy with my latest batch á la Flavetta, it was pretty easy too.

[M Alpert]

4 hours ago, LCF said:

Seems about right to me if the zinc ions are complexing the alizarin to the resin, or oil. You wouldn't need much

 

Alizarin is the actual dye molecule, one of several which are found in natural madder.  It gets confusing to say alizarin lake because that's what you get when you take alizarin, the pure dyestuff, and add it to the alum plus carbonate to make a lake pigment. So what Flavetta is saying is that as well as your method you can simply cook the lake pigment into varnish. Probably a different colour result.

So many experiments, so few lightning bolts ...

 

Confusing, indeed! What other good "dyestuff" can you buy ready, any ideas? Is the aloe he suggested also a dye powder?

[M Alpert]

4 hours ago, LCF said:

So many experiments, so few lightning bolts ...

 

True, although dissolving the alizarin into varnish was quite a lightning bolt for me. I tried many things to get good brownish red into the oil varnish transparently, this has been without a doubt the best result so far!

This was two coats over a nitrite ground.

[LCF]

37 minutes ago, M Alpert said:

Confusing, indeed! What other good "dyestuff" can you buy ready, any ideas? Is the aloe he suggested also a dye powder?

Yes. Some of those things are crude dye extracts and some are pure like the alizarin which is made in a factory. But it is the same stuff as the main dyestuff found in natural madder.

Except the one named alizarin red S which is a derivative of alizarin. 

I don't know how many of these dyes can cope with Flavetta's 280'C.

[LCF]

5 hours ago, Steve Voigt said:

Hi, the varnish is related to rosinates, but using linseed oil fatty acids instead of rosin as the soapstock. The usual name for this is linoleate, which kinda sounds like rosinate. I make a very concentrated linoleate and cook it into a varnish made from linseed oil and the heavily cooked rosin that was discussed earlier in this thread. The same thing can be done with rosinates. Michelman wrote about this in his book, in the chapter on alizarin.

And that is where I’d start, with Michelman’s book. You can get a digital copy on google play for a few bucks. He also discusses the oil soaps, though he did not see their potential.

Regarding Joe, his thing is what he calls “colored oil.” I don’t know how he makes it, but I’m pretty sure it’s not the same method I’m using. It’s beautiful stuff though.

 

 

When I first experimented with oil soaps I made soluble ones such as sodium or potassium, aiming at diglycerides and monoglycerides and stopped there! --- I was hoping it would combine with the acid group on the resin with cooking. Maybe it did but I don't have a ftir spectrometer and mostly it was either ultra viscous, or lumpy, and didn't dry well. The colours were good.  It was probably water soluble to some extent. Wash your hair with varnish.

So then I made some calcium linoleate ie the lime soap of linseed oil. Interesting non-polar whitish axle grease. Most greases are soaps of oils btw so that should be a caveat, that there are cautions to observe with these compounds for varnish making. They use this one in cow feed evidently so the cows can digest the lipids anfmd get extra calcium. It's grass but not as we know it.  It wasn't until I read John Master's idea to dry it using  xylene ( toxic, no thanks!) and use it as a pigment base that I realised it could be a useful powder. 

 

I do have good quality standard varnishes for everyday use. This other stuff is my inner mad scientist marking it's presence. What if ... ?

 

FredN described how to make a madder colourant with actual soap and water followed by ferrous sulphate or alum. I went looking for  plain soap to try this but anything I could buy was full of all sorts of muck, even the low allergenic unscented white soaps, so I will make some normal linseed oil soft soap and use that as a starting point  instead and follow in FredN and Steve Voigt's footsteps by dying the soluble soap then making it insoluble by adding Al or Zn or Ca or Fe or etc.  

Link to FredN's posting. He gives exact proportions subsequently and someone posted a photo of examples:

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/315956-lets-make-some-madder-lake/page/3/#findComment-625533

Edited April 16 by LCF
Added link

[LCF]

1 hour ago, M Alpert said:

True, although dissolving the alizarin into varnish was quite a lightning bolt for me. I tried many things to get good brownish red into the oil varnish transparently, this has been without a doubt the best result so far!

This was two coats over a nitrite ground.

 

Damn that's good!

[MikeC]

Wow, I'm glad I started this thread, there's a lot of good stuff here! 

I think my second attempt at madder lake is much better, using the espresso machine.   

Here it is drying in a food dehydrator. 

[LCF]

1 hour ago, MikeC said:

Wow, I'm glad I started this thread, there's a lot of good stuff here! 

I think my second attempt at madder lake is much better, using the espresso machine.   

Here it is drying in a food dehydrator. 

You might like to try this method from Agoessl

 

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/228901-a-new-madder-lake-experiment-easy-grinding/page/2/#findComment-1034457

[MikeC]

Thanks for that link,  I remember looking at that some time ago.  

Well, if you want red...  I got red!   This is a soft lake, meaning it breaks apart easily, I think it would be easy to grind in a mortar and pestle.   Although I didn't do that for this quick sample,  I just mashed some up with a pallet knife so it still has some particles in it.    It may be too red for my taste but I guess there's ways to modify it.    I'll see what it looks like after a day or two of sun.   

 

[Brian in Texas]

Looking much better, Mike! Is that color sample on bare wood? It kinda looks to be the case. Maybe with a deep gold ground coat, the bright red won't appear so severe.

[joerobson]

16 hours ago, MikeC said:

Thanks for that link,  I remember looking at that some time ago.  

Well, if you want red...  I got red!   This is a soft lake, meaning it breaks apart easily, I think it would be easy to grind in a mortar and pestle.   Although I didn't do that for this quick sample,  I just mashed some up with a pallet knife so it still has some particles in it.    It may be too red for my taste but I guess there's ways to modify it.    I'll see what it looks like after a day or two of sun.   

 

Nice

[MikeC]

5 hours ago, Brian in Texas said:

Looking much better, Mike! Is that color sample on bare wood? It kinda looks to be the case. Maybe with a deep gold ground coat, the bright red won't appear so severe.

Yes bare wood basically but I put a thin coat of uncolored varnish on it first mainly to test my varnish.    That's my homemade varnish thinned with turpentine,  anyway I figured it was sealed by the uncolored varnish so that would be a good scrap to test the colored varnish.    Yes it's quite red but a nice ground color under that and it would look better.   

There are some other adjustments that could be made as well,  such as a tiny bit of asphaltum,  I've read on here somewhere that will darken the varnish but don't use too much.  

Also I'm thinking of making cochineal lake and maybe mixing colors, maybe get something like a maroon or burgundy sort of color.   Seems like there's lots of things to try...  

[MikeC]

2 hours ago, joerobson said:

Nice

Thanks Joe,  not as good as yours I'm sure!  

[LCF]

4 hours ago, MikeC said:

Yes bare wood basically but I put a thin coat of uncolored varnish on it first mainly to test my varnish.    That's my homemade varnish thinned with turpentine,  anyway I figured it was sealed by the uncolored varnish so that would be a good scrap to test the colored varnish.    Yes it's quite red but a nice ground color under that and it would look better.   

There are some other adjustments that could be made as well,  such as a tiny bit of asphaltum,  I've read on here somewhere that will darken the varnish but don't use too much.  

Also I'm thinking of making cochineal lake and maybe mixing colors, maybe get something like a maroon or burgundy sort of color.   Seems like there's lots of things to try...  

If you still have some madder left try Davide Soras idea of putting a small amount of ferrous sulphate together with the alum. It will darken the lake. 

I will have a few variants to share sometime next week. I spent my mad scientist time yesterday making pure linseed oil soap some of which is now slurried with some madder. 

 

[MikeC]

I'll try that,  I have some ferrous sulfate and plenty of madder.    

[LCF]

50 minutes ago, MikeC said:

I'll try that,  I have some ferrous sulfate and plenty of madder.    

Good!

In my notes there is a suggestion that adding the lye first followed by the alum gives a slightly different lake. Lye first is the older method as far as dyeing is concerned.

Lye first --> amorphous hydrated alumina.

Alum first --> light aluminium hydrate including some sulphate.

Then there's a question of which alkali  to use, carbonate or hydroxide? I don't know but I aim to find out 

 

[LCF]

59 minutes ago, MikeC said:

I'll try that,  I have some ferrous sulfate and plenty of madder.    

Btw, making a slurry of the powder with plain water and letting it sit for a couple of hours before scooping it into the espresso machine is a definite improvement imo. 

 

[fiddlecollector]

On 4/15/2025 at 7:39 PM, MikeC said:

ok,  I'm lost now.   What's an oil soap varnish and how do you make it?   Is there an old link here somewhere?   

An oil soap is made  like the resinates used in Michelmans book, only instead of using rosin you use linseed oil.

[joerobson]

18 hours ago, MikeC said:

Thanks Joe,  not as good as yours I'm sure!  

Mike,

You are getting good color.

But for me it is kind of like comparing apples and coconuts. My lakes are not particulate.  I bond the lake making to the linseed oil and then use it to make varnish.

on we go,

Joe

[MikeC]

Hi Joe, 

Seems like there's some info floating around on coloring oil but I'll stick to making lake.   I could buy varnish but I'm enjoying the process of learning to make it and the colors for it.   

While the second batch of madder lake turned out well,  I think it's way too bright a red for my taste.  

[Davide Sora]

2 hours ago, MikeC said:

Hi Joe, 

Seems like there's some info floating around on coloring oil but I'll stick to making lake.   I could buy varnish but I'm enjoying the process of learning to make it and the colors for it.   

While the second batch of madder lake turned out well,  I think it's way too bright a red for my taste.  

I don't know how this applies to the steam extraction (espresso machine method), but with the usual extraction system in a potassium carbonate solution, the temperature of the solution creates different colors, from the lightest and towards pink at low temperature, to the darkest at boiling temperature. This is well illustrated in Jo Kirby's book. Reversing the two solutions of alum and potassium (extracting in alum) gives further variations.