Varnish making... and Lake making

[MikeC]

1 hour ago, jefcostello said:

 

I don't recommend adding color to an entire can of varnish because we are not the manufacturer and it is very likely that we will add too little or too much. Simply put, we don't have that many tests.

I suggest you take out a little varnish, add the pigment, and transfer it to another small jar.

What I meant is, with my homemade varnish, I want to fill a four ounce bottle with colored varnish.   Would I have to pour a little out of the four ounce bottle onto a plate and mull the lake pigment into that little bit and then put it back into the bottle with the rest?  Or can I just put some amount of lake pigment in the bottle and stir it for a while to mix it in?  

[jefcostello]

19 minutes ago, MikeC said:

What I meant is, with my homemade varnish, I want to fill a four ounce bottle with colored varnish.   Would I have to pour a little out of the four ounce bottle onto a plate and mull the lake pigment into that little bit and then put it back into the bottle with the rest?  Or can I just put some amount of lake pigment in the bottle and stir it for a while to mix it in?  

I would apply the varnish twice as thick and then fingerprint test. This will take me one to two weeks.

Yes I recommend you do this, some pigments will soften the varnish.  It's not hard, good luck!

 

[ernym]

2 hours ago, MikeC said:

What I meant is, with my homemade varnish, I want to fill a four ounce bottle with colored varnish.   Would I have to pour a little out of the four ounce bottle onto a plate and mull the lake pigment into that little bit and then put it back into the bottle with the rest?  Or can I just put some amount of lake pigment in the bottle and stir it for a while to mix it in?  

I mull dry pigments well into the amount of varnish for one coat. I wouldn't just add dry pigments to the jar and stir. If you do they will settle to the bottom in short time.

[MikeC]

23 minutes ago, ernym said:

I mull dry pigments well into the amount of varnish for one coat. I wouldn't just add dry pigments to the jar and stir. If you do they will settle to the bottom in short time.

I was hoping to color some quantity like 2 to 4 ounces so I wouldn't have to mull for each coat.  Is there any way to do that?   Is there any way to make the lake particles small enough that they would stay in suspension?   

[MikeC]

In other news...  I have ordered supplies to make madder lake.     

[ernym]

2 hours ago, MikeC said:

I was hoping to color some quantity like 2 to 4 ounces so I wouldn't have to mull for each coat.  Is there any way to do that?   Is there any way to make the lake particles small enough that they would stay in suspension?   

I think all lake particles will eventually settle in varnish. Once particles settle just make sure to stir well before applying the varnish. 

Mulling lakes into a rosinate varnish produces a very nice highly colored varnish. Have you tried any rosinate varnishes?

[MikeC]

1 hour ago, ernym said:

I think all lake particles will eventually settle in varnish. Once particles settle just make sure to stir well before applying the varnish. 

Mulling lakes into a rosinate varnish produces a very nice highly colored varnish. Have you tried any rosinate varnishes?

I haven't tried rosinate varnish.   I might as well try making some of that while I'm at it.   

[HoGo]

What about the addition of raw madder (or other coloring substance) directly into ccoking oil(varnish) like in that presentation from Florian Leonhardts shop? Anyone tried it?

[LCF]

6 hours ago, MikeC said:

I was hoping to color some quantity like 2 to 4 ounces so I wouldn't have to mull for each coat.  Is there any way to do that?   Is there any way to make the lake particles small enough that they would stay in suspension?   

It's either elbow grease or 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/135014761736

Mulling smooshes the stuff up in there, disperses it very finely.

[LCF]

2 hours ago, HoGo said:

What about the addition of raw madder (or other coloring substance) directly into ccoking oil(varnish) like in that presentation from Florian Leonhardts shop? Anyone tried it?

Yep but only a small amount to test. And I haven't tried it with tin or alumimium salts yet. 

Cochineal should be directly soluble also but can't take such high temperatures. ( untested!)

[M Alpert]

2 hours ago, HoGo said:

What about the addition of raw madder (or other coloring substance) directly into ccoking oil(varnish) like in that presentation from Florian Leonhardts shop? Anyone tried it?

Yes. I tried Flavetta's recommendation, with Kremer Alizarin and zinc chloride, it worked very well! I am impressed with that.

Tried other ingredients similarly which did not work so well.

Warnings: it looks very easy in his demo, and basically it is. But the reaction with zinc salt is VERY volatile, add very small amounts at a time!

Also, it seems quite temperature sensitive- not much happens until about 280°C, when there is a clear reaction. But much hotter than that and it seems to burn - had one batch that cooked longer when we'r tried to add more zinc,  it went weird, like it had burnt. Small batches worked better, baby food jar quantity.

[LCF]

2 hours ago, M Alpert said:

Yes. I tried Flavetta's recommendation, with Kremer Alizarin and zinc chloride, it worked very well! I am impressed with that.

Tried other ingredients similarly which did not work so well.

Warnings: it looks very easy in his demo, and basically it is. But the reaction with zinc salt is VERY volatile, add very small amounts at a time!

Also, it seems quite temperature sensitive- not much happens until about 280°C, when there is a clear reaction. But much hotter than that and it seems to burn - had one batch that cooked longer when we'r tried to add more zinc,  it went weird, like it had burnt. Small batches worked better, baby food jar quantity.

One thing which concerned me about his demo was the cloud of smoke pouring out of his test tube. This is an outside job or at least in some sort of fume hood. The smoke from oil cooking at high temperatures is mostly acrolein from pyrolysis of the glycerin,  and that is nasty stuff. 

 

Did you try the Aloes?

 

[LCF]

5 hours ago, MikeC said:

I haven't tried rosinate varnish.   I might as well try making some of that while I'm at it.   

Search M'net for Don's ferric chloride derived red rosinate. Looks a bit like mud when fresh but as the varnish dries it goes red. Oil chemistry - oxidation, is probably reducing the iron rosinate. Somehow.

[M Alpert]

6 hours ago, LCF said:

Did you try the Aloes?

 

I didn't, yet.

Have been looking for red-brown, got a very nice color with the alizarin and zinc.

And yes, his demo was perhaps a bit too... nonchalant. I didn't do it like that!

Would like to try rosinates too... if only there were 36 hours in a day!

[Bodacious Cowboy]

18 hours ago, MikeC said:

I was hoping to color some quantity like 2 to 4 ounces so I wouldn't have to mull for each coat.  Is there any way to do that?   Is there any way to make the lake particles small enough that they would stay in suspension?   

Mull the pigment into a small amount of varnish taken from the amount you intend to use for the whole violin. Add mineral spirits to the varnish you’re mulling into to make it easier. Scrape this up and add to your varnish jar. Stir well before applying each coat.

Kremer madder lake is very good and mulls into the varnish quite easily. I’d recommend using this unless you have a desperate urge to make your own. A VERY small amount of lamp black can make the color a bit more ballsy if you want. But be careful with that. A tiny bit goes a very long way…..

[MikeC]

2 hours ago, Bodacious Cowboy said:

Mull the pigment into a small amount of varnish taken from the amount you intend to use for the whole violin. Add mineral spirits to the varnish you’re mulling into to make it easier. Scrape this up and add to your varnish jar. Stir well before applying each coat.

Kremer madder lake is very good and mulls into the varnish quite easily. I’d recommend using this unless you have a desperate urge to make your own. A VERY small amount of lamp black can make the color a bit more ballsy if you want. But be careful with that. A tiny bit goes a very long way…..

I have a desperate urge to make my own!    I have some supplies on order,  should arrive today.   I'm going to try and make my own madder lake.  Niel Ertz espresso method.  

[MikeC]

Madder root powder and alum arrived.  It frothed up out of the jar a little bit even though I was adding slowly.  I first added the alum solution,  then added sodium carbonate.   The recipe calls for potassium carbonate but I already had the sodium carbonate so I use that.  I hope it works.  We'll see what settles out overnight.  

I can't find my espresso machine, haven't used it in years, it may have gotten thrown out.   I used the keurig refillable cup with the small filters.   

 

[MikeC]

It already settled out.  

[Brian in Texas]

What happens next? This is all new to me.

[MikeC]

I have used a turkey baster to remove the clear water at the top and then added more water, repeat until it has no more color.  

After that then pour the sediment (madder lake pigment) into a coffee filter or some kind of filter and let it dry completely.  When dry, it may be a somewhat hard cake,  I'm not sure what to expect since this is my first time making it. 

It would then need to be ground to a powder,  I'm thinking mortar and pestle.   Then it can be mulled into varnish, to give the varnish a nice red color.   

I know there's a lot of water in it and it will shrink a lot when it dries but it sure does look like a lot in the jar.  

The madder lake is a transparent or mostly transparent pigment.  I guess it depends on how fine it is and how much you use.  

I don't know the chemistry but I guess somehow the dye molecule attaches to aluminum from the alum by reacting with the base sodium carbonate.  

Here it is after changing the water a couple times because I'm impatient!      Now I'm going let it sit overnight and change the water again tomorrow. 

[Brian in Texas]

Nice! Great to see things moving along.

[MikeC]

I'm not sure if I'm doing it right,  it looks kinda pink.   Maybe I used too much alum and carbonate?  Well I have plenty of madder root powder left but I'll see how this turns out before I make more.  

[Bodacious Cowboy]

It’s a long time since I made my own madder lake, but IIRC madder powder doesn’t work. You need madder roots chopped up in a coffee grinder.

[LCF]

6 minutes ago, Bodacious Cowboy said:

It’s a long time since I made my own madder lake, but IIRC madder powder doesn’t work. You need madder roots chopped up in a coffee grinder.

Powdered dried roots work ok. But if you're not using the high pressure steam powered approach with an espresso machine  you have to ferment them at slightly low pH for quite a while. And/or any of the other time tested methods. 

 

@MikeC  it doesn't look to me like you've got much of the dye happening there. 

[LCF]

Making Madder Lake Question - The Pegbox - Maestronet Forums

 

 

Making Lake Pigments - The Pegbox - Maestronet Forums

"  Old thread but this might help: https://heritagesciencejournal.springeropen.com/counter/pdf/10.1186/s40494-017-0143-4.pdf see page 3 with the tin laked pigment. "

 

 

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/search/&q=Madder&search_and_or=or