Strad's violas - where did he go wrong?

[Brian in Texas]

Qualifier: I'm an unschooled amateur who's just wrapping up his first violin build at the moment. I have next to zero expertise in the subject, so please bear with me if I ask a bunch of dumb questions.

The consensus regarding Stradivari's violas is that they don't quite stack up when compared to violas by other makers. What factors do you all believe contributes to this?

I've mentioned on here about my second project, which will be my amateurish attempt at making a viola inspired by the Mahler Strad. The client (my good friend) is just really taken with the overall outline and dimensions of this instrument and wants his own version of it. It's been noted that the Mahler is somewhat lacking especially on the C and G strings and I'm curious what you all might do differently to help rectify this issue on a loosely inspired "copy".

One thing I do plan to do differently right off is increasing the height of the ribs. On the original Mahler Strad, the ribs are only ~35mm high. Following Davide Sora's suggestion, I'm aiming to make mine 39mm high, tapering down the 37mm at the neck block. This should bring it more in line with more typical dimensions for a viola of this size, with a 412mm back length (or 16-1/4 inches).

How much does the outline of the instrument determine the sound? For comparison's sake, I've attached pictures of the Mahler and Gibson Strads. The later Gibson is a little slimmer in profile, looking to my untrained eye less like a viola and more like a slightly oversized violin. I'd think that would result in a more nasally sounding viola?

As for archings, according The Strad poster for the Mahler, the heights of the top and back are both about 15mm. I imagine the top has distorted to be somewhat flatter over the centuries? If you were making a viola of this size, would your archings be a little bit fuller? If so, combined with the taller ribs, I'd think that the increased air volume could possibly help the low end. Although if it's too big of a volume it could also lead to it being unfocused sounding, right?

What about f-hole placement? Any bass bar considerations? I'm sure there are factors I'm not even thinking of. I appreciate any insights you all can provide.

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, Brian in Texas said:

The consensus regarding Stradivari's violas is that they don't quite stack up when compared to violas by other makers. What factors do you all believe contributes to this?

One difference is that generally, the more preferred violas seem to be wider in proportion to their length.

[Brian in Texas]

7 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

One difference is that generally, the more preferred violas seem to be wider in proportion to their length.

Do you think this indicates an adequate width? If not, is there a specific counter example that you hold to be ideal?

[deans]

I think Strad didnt anticipate what people would prefer in our generation. Many modern violists seem to prefer dark, brooding instruments that are as distinct as possible fom the violin. I believe previous generations looked at the viola as the alto voice among strings, not something that needed to have a distinct character.

With that said, it seems to me that players who used actual Strad violas grew quite fond of their instruments.

 

[Brian in Texas]

9 minutes ago, deans said:

I think Strad didnt anticipate what people would prefer in our generation.

Ha! I wonder about things like that sometimes, how historical figures would react to the modern day. Stradivari would surely be delighted to hear his instruments are still used to play music like Boccherini and Vivaldi. But show him video of the 1st Shostakovich cello concerto and he might faint.

Thanks for linking the related video. I should've put that in my original post, probably. I've listened to Antoine Tamestit's playing on the Mahler Strad quite a lot lately.

[MANFIO]

Here the Hill's opinion on their book "Antonio Stradivari His Life and Work".  

[Brian in Texas]

29 minutes ago, MANFIO said:

Here the Hill's opinion on their book "Antonio Stradivari His Life and Work".  

Thank you for that excerpt. Being the resident viola expert, I have an honest question based on what I'm learning. Do you think that for a beginner, making a good sounding Strad viola is a fool's errand? Is there a more reliable pattern I should be considering instead?

[Christian Pedersen]

I think Stradivari violas sound quite nice, copies usualy not so much.

A reliable model that many have had success with would be a "Conte Vitale" Andrea Guarneri.

--Christian 

[Shelbow]

It would be interesting to hear comments from professional violist's that have had rare access to some of these Strad violas. There are so few, and their use largely restricted (other than a couple of instruments), I'm not sure you can ever get an accurate understanding of how they perform against other instruments in a wider context.

There are a lot of historical opinions and narratives that get rehashed continually without much objective consideration.

I'm not a violist, but I have heard James Ehnes play the Archinto, and it sounded fantastic. I'm pretty sure he's a fan of it as well.

[deans]

27 minutes ago, Shelbow said:

I'm not a violist, but I have heard James Ehnes play the Archinto, and it sounded fantastic. I'm pretty sure he's a fan of it as well.

Yes, its hard to find a modern recording of a Stad viola that sounds "bad".  I suppose that might be a testimant to how good players are these days. The only one I have heard in person was at the Smithsonian, somebody from the Natl Symphony I believe. Geez I forget, a long time ago. But I dont recall coming out of it thinking it was bad.

 

 

 

[MANFIO]

The Strad viola model is very elegant, but a bit too narrow as David Burgess mentioned. Antoine Tamestit produces a beautiful sound on the Mahler viola, I had it in my hands sometimes (the head is quite big, I remembered the Hill remarks on it). 

Michael Tree told me that he was offered to play Strad violas many times and refused to do it.

I developed my personal viola model based on the Italian classics.

[Brian in Texas]

7 minutes ago, MANFIO said:

The Strad viola model is very elegant, but a bit too narrow as David Burgess mentioned.

Would having the ribs taller than the original help to compensate for this, or is the body outline vastly more important than just air volume alone?

[MANFIO]

21 minutes ago, Brian in Texas said:

Would having the ribs taller than the original help to compensate for this, or is the body outline vastly more important than just air volume alone?

I am not a big fan of deep ribs, they can result in hollow sound, slow response and lack of focus. The viola main problems are a too narrow dynamic range, dead C string, slow response, unfocused sound.

I wrote an article about viola making to the Philadelphia Viola Society some years ago. Here

SOME IDEAS ABOUT VIOLA MAKING

By Luis Claudio Manfio

When a luthier decides to make a violin, he has two basic models: Stradivari and Guarneri Del Gesù. But if the instrument is a viola it is not all that simple. First there is the question of size (from 15.5 to 18 inches), then the model, that can be Cremonese (Amati, Guarneri, Stradivari), Brescian (Gasparo da Salò, Maggini, Zanetto), Venetian (Busan), or personal. Depending on the choices of the maker the resulting viola can vary a lot in terms of sound, playability and appearance.Then comes the sound, dark or bright. All these possibilities will affect violist’s decisions when they are looking for a viola too.The viola is tuned one octave above the cello so, ideally, it should be half of the size of cello, but that would make it unplayable.

As a maker, my main idea is more making a tool for the musician than an art object; instruments are made for making music, so most of my energy goes to sound and playability. Bearing that in mind, and being also a player, I try to avoid the most common problems associated with the viola: a too narrow dynamic range (you change your bowing and nothing happens in terms of volume and sound color), slow response, a dead C string, lack of clarity (notes will mingle in quick passages) and unfocused and hollow sound.

First, let us talk about the size. Playing comfort depends not only on the size but also on the string length, weight of the instrument, neck thickness and width, rib depth and how wide the sound box is, mainly in the upper bouts. There are many violists with injuries due to playing a big viola over the years. Fortunately, today there are many teachers that will warn their students about the risks of playing an oversized viola. Many players, when they are young, can handle a big viola but, as they get older, many of them will move to a smaller one. Playing conditions must have an influence too, if you play in the opera you may have to face up to six hours of playing, and that can be hard in a large viola even if you are a tall player with long arms. Most professional violists will move to a smaller viola that sounds good as soon as they have an opportunity to do so. I think we can see that today there is a trend towards small violas.

It was Michael Tree that advised me to become a viola maker some decades ago, and he loved big violas, so I made many 17 inch violas. They were very good, but hard to sell, since they required tall players. So I started reducing the size, setting eventually in a 16 inch model that most players can handle. Sometimes I make also a 15.5 inch model for small players.

My main model is inspired in Andrea Guarneri, which I reduced to 40.7 cms. (16”), but with the lower and C bouts a bit wider, keeping the upper bouts as the original Andrea Guarneri (19.3 cm.). Too wide upper bouts make it difficult to stretch up to the higher positions.

A smaller model is not only more comfortable but will also make playing difficult pieces easier. It is good remembering how difficult viola auditions are today. In order to make it light I use low density spruce and maple that is less dense. I make my scrolls 5% smaller than the original Andrea Guarneri and without shoulders, that is, violin type, and fit them with violin pegs (a Tertis idea). Necks don’t need to be thick and wide; they can add a lot of weight so I make them almost as thin and narrow as a violin neck. I try to make the blocks and linings smaller too, and with very light wood, I am always trying to take off some grams here and there and, eventually , it makes a huge difference for comfort playing. Long corners can look beautiful, but they may play havoc with bow clearance, so I make my viola corners on the short size. Deep ribs can make the viola uncomfortable, not only under the neck root but also under the chin, so I make my ribs on the shallow side, at 37 mm in the endpin and 34 on the neck root. Too deep ribs may make the sound hollow and unfocused too. Good C bout widths coupled with f holes that are not too close are good for the basses. I make my f holes parallel, that helps creating a long and wide platform in the top that helps resonance.

I follow Renè Morel’s ideas about string and neck length, 15 cm. for the neck and a comfortable string length of 375 mm. Most of my players like to produce a big sound so, following Zukerman’s advice, I make my plates on the thick side, backs are from 3 to 7 mm. thick, and tops are 3. mm thick that, coupled with a relatively massive bass bar, helps producing an instrument with few or almost no wolves or rasped notes. I try to make a viola that sounds good also in the 7th position of the C string, a very difficult region in sound production that is used a lot by top players.

The use of thicker graduations also prevents that the viola will not choke when the instrument is played fortissimo with the bow near the bridge. When I draw my bow from the end of the fingerboard towards the bridge increasing the bow weight I want a dramatic difference in volume and color to be heard, without that it is very hard to interpret music. Just think about the flexibility of a contralto opera singer, that’s what we want from a good viola.

For sound colour I like a dark, but focused sound, that can also be edgy when you want it. Violas are unmerciful with makers, if you make something wrong the resulting instrument will not sound good. So I do prefer focusing to the same model and size, keeping precise notes about the wood used, weight and tap tones of the tops and backs in order to get consistent results.

A good thing about being a viola maker is that you can count with a helpful viola community. Most players, principals, soloists and teachers are always willing to test drive your instruments and give their opinion on them. Whenever I meet a very good player I ask, “what can I do better?”.

Today’s violists are lucky to count on some makers specialized in violas that are constantly exchanging information, it is a relatively new thing that makes the life of viola players much easier.

 

[Brad Dorsey]

5 hours ago, Brian in Texas said:

…I imagine the top has distorted to be somewhat flatter over the centuries?…

Normally, the distortion of the tops of violin-family instruments over the centuries raises the archings higher.

[Brian in Texas]

7 minutes ago, MANFIO said:

I wrote an article about viola making to the Philadelphia Viola Society some years ago.

Luis, thank you for such a thorough and immeasurably useful response!

7 minutes ago, Brad Dorsey said:

Normally, the distortion of the tops of violin-family instruments over the centuries raises the archings higher.

Ah, that makes sense with soundpost pushing up, I guess? I thought the strings would push down more.

[martin swan]

I spent some time with Antoine Tamestit and the Mahler Strad. He told me it took him eight years to get a sound out of the C string that worked - part of that success seemed to me to be his choice of a bow with a very gritty sound.

I don't believe any professional soloist would choose this viola if it wasn't a fantastically well preserved and uniquely valuable Strad.

I thought it was smaller than 41.1 ...?

[PawelP]

Brian, you can find that helpful as well:

https://helenviolinmaker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Transcript-of-talk-to-Lutherie-2006.pdf

[Brian in Texas]

1 hour ago, PawelP said:

Brian, you can find that helpful as well:

https://helenviolinmaker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Transcript-of-talk-to-Lutherie-2006.pdf

That’s tremendous, thank you!

[Davide Sora]

Even though I use an Andrea Guarneri model for some of the reasons listed above, I think the form (outline) of the Mahler viola could work just as well, as it has a length/width ratio that is quite similar to Guarneri or Amati violas and quite different from other Stradivarian violas. I probably wouldn't copy the Mahler's archings, scroll, and the height of the ribs. However, honestly, the Mahler and other Stradivari violas I've heard haven't sounded bad at all, and if one of my violas sounded like the ones I've heard, I don't think I'd mind at all. I would probably be very happy. Maybe the credit for the beautiful sound was just the very good players? Maybe.

[MANFIO]

14 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

Even though I use an Andrea Guarneri model for some of the reasons listed above, I think the form (outline) of the Mahler viola could work just as well, as it has a length/width ratio that is quite similar to Guarneri or Amati violas and quite different from other Stradivarian violas. I probably wouldn't copy the Mahler's archings, scroll, and the height of the ribs. However, honestly, the Mahler and other Stradivari violas I've heard haven't sounded bad at all, and if one of my violas sounded like the ones I've heard, I don't think I'd mind at all. I would probably be very happy. Maybe the credit for the beautiful sound was just the very good players? Maybe.

Yes Davide, in the case of soloists, they can carve the sound...  I saw Roberto Dias playing 30 violas or so during an International viola Congress, and he made them all sound almost the same.

[Brian in Texas]

That’s one area where I have a good advantage. My friend that I’m making the viola for is an out of practice amateur who’s wanting to pick it back up, but he also happens to know a professional orchestral violist that I can tap for advice and feedback.

[LCF]

7 hours ago, David Burgess said:

One difference is that generally, the more preferred violas seem to be wider in proportion to their length.

Does this also mean that the distance between the ff holes is greater making the island area wider?

[Don Noon]

6 hours ago, Brian in Texas said:

Would having the ribs taller than the original help to compensate for this, or is the body outline vastly more important than just air volume alone?

5 hours ago, MANFIO said:

I am not a big fan of deep ribs, they can result in hollow sound, slow response and lack of focus.

Making taller ribs wouldn't compensate for a smaller outline, since air volume and plate area do entirely different things.  I'm with Manfio... deep ribs and more air volume don't do anything paricularly good.

I developed a 40 cm viola design and use ribs 33-35mm tall, with the goal of keeping air volume down and keeping the A0 air resonance up around C (on the G string), which gives some power to the open C string via the first overtone.  My goal is more of a projecting soloist viola, which might not be what a quartet violist would want.  Violas I think can sound many different ways, and still be good depending on the player and what they want to do with it.  my 40cm viola

[Dwight Brown]

One thing to consider is that there are only around  12 Strad violas. Very few players have ever played a Strad viola let alone one in good set up with modern strings.  It may be a bit of a self perpetuating story?

DLB

[Brian in Texas]

11 hours ago, Don Noon said:

my 40cm viola

That’s a really great sounding instrument! I see your point about air volume. Maybe 35mm isn’t too shallow after all?

On the other hand, the guy that’s gonna play this is just wanting something decent to casually fiddle around with, and likely won’t be tackling any serious soloist repertoire. Should I perhaps aim for 36-37 if the goal is just a nice mellow sound?

It’s entirely likely that I’m just overthinking this and spinning my wheels. That’s the problem with being an amateur beginner. I have a ton of new information swirling around my head, but I haven’t mentally synthesized it into a concrete body of knowledge and experience. Basically, I don’t know what I don’t know, and what I do know is mostly surface level.