Buying a splined bow?

[szuper_bojler]

Hi all,

I'm currently shopping for bows and have come across two bows that I like a lot: a Manoel Francisco bow and a splined Douglas Raguse bow. The Francisco bow handles a bit better than the Raguse, but the Raguse produces a slightly thicker and richer sound. I'm leaning ever so slightly toward the Raguse bow, though I'm a bit hesitant about buying a splined bow—I'm not sure what risks I might be taking there. They are both in the same price range.

I'm also not very confident in my bow-discerning skills—I know the Raguse bow is considered a "finer" bow, so I feel that as my playing improves, I'll learn to appreciate the qualities of a finer bow that I can't quite discern at the moment, which is another reason I'm leaning toward it.

Any help or advice is much appreciated!

[Dwight Brown]

It would help to know who splined it.(probably impossible) I have a Raguse violin bow and it is very nice. It should be at a very substantial discount, I would think around $1000.00 total price.

DLB

[szuper_bojler]

31 minutes ago, Dwight Brown said:

It would help to know who splined it.(probably impossible) I have a Raguse violin bow and it is very nice. It should be at a very substantial discount, I would think around $1000.00 total price.

DLB

They are offering it for more than double the price you quoted there.... hmmm it is a nice bow though. 

 

[martin swan]

For me the depreciation for a splined bow should be 85% - in other words the sale price is the value of the mounts.

Splines often fail ...

Manoel Francisco bows can be very good - as with violins, the quality is only loosely associated with the price. 

In both cases I would check that the bows are CITES compliant ie. made with legal stocks of pernambuco. I would predict that this will become very important after the next CITES conference.

 

[jacobsaunders]

I wouldn’t buy a splined bow at all, even if the discount was 100%

[deans]

I have one experience with a splined bow (it came along with a viola I wanted). It failed during a rehearsal and I got the evil eye from the conductor. I did get it redone though, but now only use it at home. 

[Dwight Brown]

My experience may be worth very little. I bought my Raguse at auction perhaps 15 years ago. Silver mounted in perfect condition for $3000.00 or thereabouts. At 85% devaluation that would be $450.00 splined. I have no idea how much his bows go for now. The last I knew he lived near Traverse City, Michigan. I have not spoken to him in some time. He made a viola bow for my teacher.
 

DLB

[Dwight Brown]

Looks like he is in Florida now. Originally from the Chicago area. VSA gold medal winner.

 

https://www.ragusebows.com

 

DLB

[Jeffrey Holmes]

For what it's worth: AFVBM guide lists depreciation for a slide bow at 70%.... of course this really depends on the maker, the quality of repair, and the overall condition and originality of the parts. Example: A cheap semi commercial bow, or any one with a chewed up frog and button, would have little to no value after a break at the head even if the repair was stellar.

Like soundpost cracks in the back of an instrument, the value retained would vary depending on age, quality of the original, quality of repair, condition of the mounts, maker, and the appraiser's familiarity/experiences with the market for compromised equipment. Opinions will vary.  I'd tend to be a bit more ruthless figuring depreciation for a contemporary maker's violin with a sp crack in the back as my experience in the market indicates they are very difficult to resell.  A modern bow with a head break would most likely receive extra scrutiny.  Part of the attraction for buying  something relatively new is that the buyer isn't inheriting any problems.

Contemporary methods (and adhesives) have made well accomplished splines much more reliable.   I've seen splined bows work well for a very long time...

Doug makes a good bow.  I play on one.  I believe he did use ivory for the head plates in the past (like many makers). I'm sure he could fill you in if you emailed him (he does number his bows (inside the stick mortise).

[uguntde]

I have two splined bows. One is a gold mounted Nürnberger for which I may have probably paid too much or not (below 1500XX), but I have also played it a lot and love the bow. The spline is old and I look after it, to hopefully spot it early when it comes loose. For me this bow has tuedn into a life-time consumable. It is not insured, I take it everywhere, it is perfect for my playing. I have bows in perfect condition eith certificates which never leave the house and give me less joy.

I have another bow from a modern maker which cost about 35% of what it would have been new. The spline is done differently - a thin ebony plate, exactly level with the original wood. The maker told me that he could have done this invisible but chose not to. For me the way the spline is done is piece of art. I told the maker who responded 'I make it with a machine'.

With such bows I am not afraid of breaking them. for modern splines using CA glue the question is how the CA ages. I somethimes wonder why bowmakers don't spline them all with harder wood and the grain rectanglular to that of the bow to reinforce the head.

WIth CITES and a lack of new wood I am also not so sure whether the devaluation of splined bows continues. The question may eventually be 'carbon, repaired or very expensive'.

[Foldejal]

Can you post the photo of the ebony spline repair, please?

[elise2000]

I saw a fetique violin bow with a splined head in the current bromptons auction with an estimate of 3-5k. I guess that’s in line with 70% or so reduction. 

[David Burgess]

On 3/20/2025 at 12:06 PM, Dwight Brown said:

It would help to know who splined it.

Yes, the reliability of a spline repair highly depends on who did it, and what methods they used.

[uguntde]

21 hours ago, Foldejal said:

Can you post the photo of the ebony spline repair, please?

Here are some pics. This was a gold-mounted viola bow. After the repair the maler put a nickel frog on it. I asked him a few times to put a gold frog back on but he refused, he would rather make a new one. I have to say, I always liked the repair. The stick is extremely strong, you never feel the stck when playing, as typical for this maker.

 

[fiddlecollector]

So you owned the bow and had it repaired by the maker who refused to put the original frog back on. Surely if you owned it then  that would be illegal ???

[Chamberlain]

Good luck in your search for a beautiful playing bow that matches your and your instruments style of play.  Take your time. There are many beauties out there. 
Something else to also note is that once the bow is broken and repaired with a spline it no longer plays exactly how the maker intended. Especially if it’s not a good repair. It has been altered by whoever broke it and repaired it. So if there are negatives in its play, the break and repair may account for some of that. 
A well done spline can be very elegant and strong with the plywood effect. If done correctly. 

[Chamberlain]

9 hours ago, fiddlecollector said:

So you owned the bow and had it repaired by the maker who refused to put the original frog back on. Surely if you owned it then  that would be illegal ???

I agree. A lot of red flags here. I’ll trade you your gold for this shiny new nickel….

[szuper_bojler]

10 hours ago, uguntde said:

This was a gold-mounted viola bow. After the repair the maler put a nickel frog on it

How is this not robbery? Surely he at least give the frog back to you if it wasn't fitting well?

[Chamberlain]

10 hours ago, uguntde said:

Here are some pics. This was a gold-mounted viola bow. After the repair the maler put a nickel frog on it. I asked him a few times to put a gold frog back on but he refused, he would rather make a new one. I have to say, I always liked the repair. The stick is extremely strong, you never feel the stck when playing, as typical for this maker.

 

Could you tell us where the original break was? It looks like there is a groove running down the top of the stick past the ebony also? 

[martin swan]

I assume that the stick didn't have its original frog, and that Ulrich asked the maker to make a new frog in gold?

[uguntde]

On 3/24/2025 at 9:01 PM, martin swan said:

I assume that the stick didn't have its original frog, and that Ulrich asked the maker to make a new frog in gold?

Correct, he used the gold frog for a new stick - I assume the insurance of the owner paid. The maker considered the stick worthless.

I can't see the original break, not even with a lense.

[D.Miller]

A little late to the topic, but my 2 cents would be, it depends on how much you like the bow and whether you are willing to accept the risk of owning a splined bow that may fail a some point. 

[Ganymede Piggot]

On 3/21/2025 at 11:42 AM, Jeffrey Holmes said:

A modern bow [...].  Part of the attraction for buying  something relatively new is that the buyer isn't inheriting any problems.

My thinking on old bows is like if it hasn't broken already, it isn't going to, so I'm only interested in old ones.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

4 hours ago, Ganymede Piggot said:

My thinking on old bows is like if it hasn't broken already, it isn't going to, so I'm only interested in old ones.

I've seen a good number of older bows break at the head.  Must be your sample size.

[GeorgeH]

1 hour ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

I've seen a good number of older bows break at the head.  Must be your sample size.

Spontaneously?