left handed cello

[Rudie11]

I have a customer who refuses to be talked out of her desire to have a left handed cello.  Yes, i explained the lunacy in a polite manner, but she was ready to order a reverse-model cello from another company and her teacher convinced her to chat with me first.  My question is this, if I was to cut a bridge reverse for her to spend a couple of months on a cello as she wants to play (backwards), is the weight of the A string going to warp the table in that time?  I know it will sound terrible, but I just don't want to make a cello for her just because she "thinks" she is going to love it.  Before she spends the money, i want her to "know" that she loves it, and I don't want to damage a rental instrument in the process.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Brad Dorsey]

I think having her play a normal cello with reversed strings and bridge on a trial basis is a good idea.  Would the pegs have to be reversed, too?

The weight of the A string will not be a problem, but you might want to compare its tension with C string tension.

[Rudie11]

I thought the A string was heavier, like 40lbs.  and C strings were something like 30 or less.  The soundpost would be under the C anyway.  As you suggest, i was thinking of stringing the pegs reversed, and then carving a bridge to fit.  I feel dirty!

[baroquecello]

I've had cellos strung inversely, though never for a long time. I didn't notice any problems with the top of the instruments. It doesn't sound good, but not as terrible as one might expect. If she plans on going through with this, inverting a cello it is a good way of making use of a cello with a sound post crack.

[Rudie11]

Thank you so much for sharing your experience.  I actually do have a cello with a sound post crack that is half finished awaiting my time to carve the patch.  That is a great idea to use that instrument for her experiment!

[Brad Dorsey]

18 hours ago, Rudie11 said:

I thought the A string was heavier, like 40lbs.  and C strings were something like 30 or less...

Cello strings are much lighter than 30 pounds; they are so light that their weight is insignificant for your purpose.

James Beament's book, "The Violin Explained," gives typical string tensions for "polyamide-cored" cello strings as 10 kilograms for the C and 14.5 for the A.

 

[Strad O Various Jr.]

1 hour ago, Brad Dorsey said:

Cello strings are much lighter than 30 pounds; they are so light that their weight is insignificant for your purpose.

James Beament's book, "The Violin Explained," gives typical string tensions for "polyamide-cored" cello strings as 10 kilograms for the C and 14.5 for the A.

 

do you know what a kilogram is????

 

[Rudie11]

I typically use Larsen on cellos.  The Cannones are a higher tension string with more weight than what Beamant says. larsen-il-cannone-cello-2023.pdf

I think you are right that it will be ok for this purpose.  I am going to finish the sound post crack repair on a cello collecting dust in a repair pile, and use that instrument for this little experiment.

[Greg Sigworth]

I didn't read all the comments so I may just repeat something already said. I play the cello and my response is the same for violin and viola. You play using both hands so there is no such thing as a left handed cello. Being left handed might in some cases be an advantage as the left hand is very important in string instruments, shifting positions etc. I would explain that to the player and hopefully they will start thinking correctly. I am sure that some of the world's best cello players are lefthanded and play on what can be incorrectly called a right handed cello.

[Rudie11]

I did exactly that.  I am left handed too, a violinist, and I told her that she has an advantage with increased dexterity in her left hand.  I even did a research paper on "left handed playing" when i was in music performance at the University of Toronto.  I went through it all, even the disruptive nature in ensemble or orchestral settings, but she listened and then told me this is what she is doing.  She tried it and it felt all wrong the proper way.  She switched hands and it just felt right.  <sigh>

I was inclined to let her go through with ordering a left-handed cello from a local music store, but she was referred to me by a respected friend and colleague, so I feel a little more ownership in making her a happy customer.

[David Burgess]

A conventional violin, viola, or cello is already "left-handed".

[Brad Dorsey]

8 hours ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

do you know what a kilogram is????

Yes.  It’s a unit of mass equal to 1000 grams.  Which is somewhere around 2.2 or 2.4 pounds, I think.  You can look it up.

[martin swan]

If you're right handed, the left hand creates notes, the right hand/arm turns those notes into music.

So I would be very respectful of anyone who wanted to use their leading hand for bowing. Obviously this is going to be more an issue for amateurs than professionals, but what exactly is the problem?

[matesic]

5 hours ago, David Burgess said:

A conventional violin, viola, or cello is already "left-handed".

If that's the case then so is a guitar. I'm sure there are plenty of frustrated sinistrals out there who could have developed better skills if they hadn't been obliged to play a conventional violin/cello.

But it's always puzzled me that with the conventional setup the left hand is the one whose fingers have to perform the most contortions. I can only suppose the violin is the way it is so that the dominant arm can call the shots.

[Victor Roman]

6 minutes ago, matesic said:

But it's always puzzled me that with the conventional setup the left hand is the one whose fingers have to perform the most contortions. I can only suppose the violin is the way it is so that the dominant arm can call the shots.

You are right. And for "average" violin playing the BIG issue is not "contortions" but rhythm. 

[LCF]

6 hours ago, Victor Roman said:

You are right. And for "average" violin playing the BIG issue is not "contortions" but rhythm. 

- and control of the dynamics, the excitation. It seems to be more important. For similar reasons guitar is plucked by the hand which is usually dominant. It could have ended up 50/50 either way but it didn't. 

[HoGo]

There are several forms and degrees of laterality and some virtuosos who are left handes play right handed instruments with ease (and their laterality actually makes their left hand techniques worth envy). From mandolin world Chris Thile is absolute "star" in all respects, his left hand is ridiculous, he can play with just ring finger and pinky on fretting hands better than many can with their whole hand of four fingers.

Some folks are so strongly left handed that thay just cannot use their right hand for bowing or plucking and make more progress by using inverted instrument (though I feel thay may still experience problems with their right hand fingerings).

I'm more or less ambidextrous, I write with right hand, mostly use right hand for common tasks but I hold bow (archery) with right hand also hockey stick I use lefthanded. I could pitch in baseball with both hands (though none at pro level) and I can use chisels or gouges with either hand (here right is stronger so more often used). When I picked lefty instrument like guitar I could with some effort see that I could play it if I spent more some time with it.

Now, my daughter has "crossed laterality" and that is another puzzle. She plays violin and it shows that the hands don't coordinate as easily as they should. Similar for reading/ writing and other skills where you need to coordinate senses (ears or eyes) with movement of arms. Surprisingly she is quite good at carving wooden objects (with pocket knife).

[LCF]

1 hour ago, HoGo said:

There are several forms and degrees of laterality and some virtuosos who are left handes play right handed instruments with ease (and their laterality actually makes their left hand techniques worth envy). From mandolin world Chris Thile is absolute "star" in all respects, his left hand is ridiculous, he can play with just ring finger and pinky on fretting hands better than many can with their whole hand of four fingers.

Some folks are so strongly left handed that thay just cannot use their right hand for bowing or plucking and make more progress by using inverted instrument (though I feel thay may still experience problems with their right hand fingerings).

I'm more or less ambidextrous, I write with right hand, mostly use right hand for common tasks but I hold bow (archery) with right hand also hockey stick I use lefthanded. I could pitch in baseball with both hands (though none at pro level) and I can use chisels or gouges with either hand (here right is stronger so more often used). When I picked lefty instrument like guitar I could with some effort see that I could play it if I spent more some time with it.

Now, my daughter has "crossed laterality" and that is another puzzle. She plays violin and it shows that the hands don't coordinate as easily as they should. Similar for reading/ writing and other skills where you need to coordinate senses (ears or eyes) with movement of arms. Surprisingly she is quite good at carving wooden objects (with pocket knife).

I wonder how your daughter would fare with woodwind? This is one area where the choice of having the left hand uppermost was optional on earlier types but arbitrarily became the norm when keywork became asymmetrical. There is no innate advantage aside from that. One keyed 'baroque' flutes can be played with either hand uppermost although to do so they usually need to be held to the left or  right accordingly. 

[Rudie11]

This is one of the many benefits of playing a musical instrument, and stringed instruments in particular - it develops the brain and neuro-pathways to function at a high level, utilizing so much of the brain simultaneously.  While we are naturally inclined to use left or right, it is possible to train and develop either way.  Either way on a stringed instrument, it is a monumental task to learn to play.  For a beginner to choose an unconventional way because it "feels" better to them, is an uneducated decision.  Music is social, and in most settings, playing backwards is problematic for string players.

just my opinionated 2 cents as a pro player of 35 years and a teacher of 25.

[Greg Sigworth]

Some more thoughts; I have played the cello for so long that it is hard to compare my right and left hand functions. I wish I was better with the left hand fingering and I believe that the right arm is good at bowing. Not that this is a result of my being right handed; just that my bowing is a strength and my verbrato not so good.beyond this I do not know. Would this be true if I was left handed? I don't know. I would say that bowing is not from the right hand but more from the right arm; while fingering is more the left hand and not the arm. If this lady wants to be serious about the cello, down the road she will not be able to find better instruments to use unless she uses the conventional cellos, or is it celli. Also, I don't think you can take a conventional cello and remake it; the finger board alone would have to be changed and many other aspects. If she goes with a socalled lefthanded cello then later if she becomes serious about the instrument she probably will have to start all over. Most of the skills needed require both hands and arms to work together at incredible fast speed that has little to do with right or left priority. The right hand with the bow produces music and the left hand makes it good music; and hopefully they are on the same page. Maybe the instruments are all made the same way to prevent orchestra members from poking each other in the eye.

[Rue]

...and I'm gonna pull out my left handed piano and my left handed bassoon...

Why? I have no idea... 

 

 

[LCF]

Compared to Violin, Cello is bowed backwards and upside down. Surely it's only a small adjustment to learn to play a standard right handed cello left handedly? 

[HoGo]

Now what should we call this guy call? He plays normal violin held upside down fingering with his right and bowing with left. Stefan Dymiter was a musical HERO. If you want to play you'll find the way.

 

https://youtu.be/3CbETXqd0xQ

[HoGo]

19 hours ago, LCF said:

I wonder how your daughter would fare with woodwind?

SHe never tried that but she started learning piano and that seems to work without problems for her. Probably because both hands and bothe eyes/ ears have quite similar role here.

What we were said is that she has left eye connected to right hand and vice versa and likely the same with hearing. That causes her problems with processing the signal that coordinates moves of hands by vision and probably also from ears. I notice that she often reads with mistakes that may be caused by some kind of optical illusion (or transformation) like when she reads "to" as "of"... Often she reads wrong note (like the score was flipped).

Some folks may have real problem playing "normal" instrument but for many left handed the problems may be overcome by training and even possibly with some benefit of better and more quickly attained technique on the left hand. And one should not forget hat there is so few left handed instruments to choose from when you need to upgrade.

[bungling_amateur]

I remember coming across this man decades ago:

https://www.lefthandedpiano.co.uk/about.html

If you can't decide:

https://web.archive.org/web/20110823170057/http://www.mim.be/double-piano-with-mirrored-keyboards-by-les-freres-mangeot

 

But really this is an interesting example of the discussion between the "progressive individual" who can prioritise their own uninformed feelings and preferences, and the inherited tradition that sets out your duties and responsibilities as an inheritor of traditions and a member of society.