Id Violin

[jandepora]

Hello, I hope you're doing well.

I need help with this violin.

At first it looks Mittenwald, but the inside construction when I opend it, doesn´t point to this school. I don't know it could be English. I think that maybe the top is one piece. The linnings are rounded and not inserted in the corner blocks, but let into the top and bottom block.

The LOB is 354mm

What is your opinion?

Thank you in advance for your help.

 

 

[jandepora]

Any idea of its orgin or age? 

I need to make a new bass bar because someone try to use a solderin iron in it

[jandepora]

Here pictures of the pins on the back, I think that are ornamentals and not necessary for the construction but maybe could help in the identification. And other pictures that maybe help.

 

 

[GeorgeH]

Something out of the Boston MA area late 18th early 19th century maybe? 

[jandepora]

13 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

Something out of the Boston MA area late 18th early 19th century maybe? 

Something like that I was thinking about, not far but not near my home too.

 

[jacobsaunders]

As a teenager growing up in England, I noticed that people who didn’t know what something was almost always said, “Oh, that will be German”. Then I moved to Munich, and quickly noticed that people there who didn’t know what something was would invariably say “that’s probably English”. I would have thought that the linings arrangement must be characteristic of something, as are perhaps the f hole nicks, but I draw a blank. I suppose one could have a wild guess, like Boston or Russia or anywhere else, but I would like to see linings like that first

[jandepora]

5 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

As a teenager growing up in England, I noticed that people who didn’t know what something was almost always said, “Oh, that will be German”. Then I moved to Munich, and quickly noticed that people there who didn’t know what something was would invariably say “that’s probably English”. I would have thought that the linings arrangement must be characteristic of something, as are perhaps the f hole nicks, but I draw a blank. I suppose one could have a wild guess, like Boston or Russia or anywhere else, but I would like to see linings like that first

Are you pointing about he linings let into the top and bottom blocks or the rounded linings?

[jacobsaunders]

16 minutes ago, jandepora said:

Are you pointing about he linings let into the top and bottom blocks or the rounded linings?

that they are let into the top/bottom blocks, but not the corners. The rounding is a bit exotic as well

[jandepora]

44 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

that they are let into the top/bottom blocks, but not the corners. The rounding is a bit exotic as well

Then, another of my speciality violins... Rare, and nobody knows. At least I could say that it pinch our minds.

If we don't see the linings there in top and bottom blocks... What could it be?

18c or first part of 19c?.... This model and varnish? And someone could see if the top is one or two pieces?

Thanks

[GeorgeH]

57 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I suppose one could have a wild guess, like Boston or Russia or anywhere else, but I would like to see linings like that first

It would be great if somebody who has seen the inside of violins coming out of the Boston workshops during that time could comment on this one. My guess was based on some of the features of the exterior and that the interior work does not appear to conform to any European traditions.

Many American violins did not travel far from the place that they were made because they were purchased by locals from the maker, and even today violins by these lesser-known makers tend to be concentrated around where they were originally made. They were not sold by the big music houses and did not have national distribution. I would not dismiss out-of-hand the location of this violin as giving some clue to its origin along with the general impression of the instrument.

 

[jandepora]

@GeorgeH sorry then, I was thinking you were joking about it's origin.

I have not any and didn't see an American violin never.

This is then a candidate for a dendro.

See what @Ratcliffiddlescould see in this violin.

French origin is not possible?

[jacobsaunders]

18 minutes ago, jandepora said:

18c or first part of 19c?.

I would have thought mid 19th

[jandepora]

13 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I would have thought mid 19th

This Guarneri model is more often seen in 19c. I suppose.

[GeorgeH]

1 hour ago, jandepora said:

sorry then, I was thinking you were joking about it's origin.

I have not any and didn't see an American violin never.

The scroll, the fat wide button, the varnish, and the general impression remind me of New England violins around that time, like John Alfred Gould's work.

[Strad O Various Jr.]

I woudn't expect to see an American violin without a label, that alone points to it being a trade violin

[jandepora]

No American violin experts here?

This violin doesn't look autodidactic and maybe this feature could help if anyone has seen it in other occasion.

The violin was purchased in a Sweden auction if it helps.

Maybe a dendro could help?

 

 

[jacobsaunders]

On 3/10/2025 at 12:40 PM, jacobsaunders said:

As a teenager growing up in England, I noticed that people who didn’t know what something was almost always said, “Oh, that will be German”. Then I moved to Munich, and quickly noticed that people there who didn’t know what something was would invariably say “that’s probably English”. 

 

28 minutes ago, jandepora said:

 

Maybe a dendro could help?

I think I should update my 40 year old anecdote from above. Nowadays the English experts wouldn’t say “it’s German”, and the German experts “it’s English”, but they would say in unison “lets do a dendro”, and finish up quoting Goethe “Da steh' ich nun, ich armer Tor, Und bin so klug als wie zuvor!”

[LCF]

The pokerwork on the bass bar is curious.

Does anyone have an idea what the dark red (spirit based?) colourant might be? Dragonsblood? 

[Jeny Mahon]

I'm wondering whether this is a sibling of my infamous "pimple fiddle"?  It was in an attic in Maine for decades.  We decided it was American.  The purfling is ebony and maple.  

 

[Blank face]

4 hours ago, Jeny Mahon said:

We decided it was American

That's interesting. Who is the "we" that decided? As far as I remember it was thought a while that it was Mittenwald, at least by the German or Austrian posters (not likely due to the construction), than after excluding this the English experts said it was possibly English, names like Gilbert and Fendt were brought up.

Actually the Germans now think first German, the British it's British and the Americans it's American first. That's how the things are going.

In fact my first thoughts were similar, though I can not see much what these two have in common. First idea Mittenwald 19th century, after that maybe a british Guarneri copy in the style of Fendt. After all it might be Budapest or Bohemian than. One of the ribs seems to have circular saw marks which are often seen at these, and from a later 20th century period I've noticed such inserted linings in the upper and lower block sat some Czech violins.

 

[Jeny Mahon]

1 hour ago, Blank face said:

That's interesting. Who is the "we" that decided?

Hah!  Yep I remember the discussion, after I took it to Duane and he opened it he settled on probably American   I posted the photos of the inside that day.  I do like it, not sure where it is at the moment... now that I've "retired early" (thanks to Elon Musk) maybe I can work on the varnish! 

 

[Ron1]

The OP's violin looks like that hideous purple finish was slathered on after it was strung up.

[jandepora]

8 hours ago, Ron1 said:

The OP's violin looks like that hideous purple finish was slathered on after it was strung up.

Under the fingerboard there is the same red varnish.

13 hours ago, Blank face said:

In fact my first thoughts were similar, though I can not see much what these two have in common. First idea Mittenwald 19th century, after that maybe a british Guarneri copy in the style of Fendt. After all it might be Budapest or Bohemian than. One of the ribs seems to have circular saw marks which are often seen at these, and from a later 20th century period I've noticed such inserted linings in the upper and lower block sat some Czech violins.

Here better picture of what you are talking, but I only can find this marks in this rib.

In this other rib, opposite C bout rib, there is no visible marks

And here rests of the original label that where over an spurious Kriner label.

[Blank face]

Some of these reddish varnishes are sort of "sticky" for dirt etc., so thsi might explain the impression of overvarnish. Except at the back, where the original varnish seems to be stripped in the center part (for which reason ever) and a transparent coat was applied irregulary.

If there are such marks in one or two ribs one can take it as granted, that the whole rib garland was made from such, just that the marks were planed or sanded out at the others. But even if the ribs were made in Mnk/Schb they could have been exported and used elsewhere, even in Britain and America (or Italy, not saying that this is the case here).

[jandepora]

6 hours ago, Blank face said:

If there are such marks in one or two ribs one can take it as granted, that the whole rib garland was made from such, just that the marks were planed or sanded out at the others. But even if the ribs were made in Mnk/Schb they could have been exported and used elsewhere, even in Britain and America (or Italy, not saying that this is the case here).

If it was the case, like it seems to be, the violin is only possible not earlier than c1850?