Hill type brackets chinrest effect on the sound

[Daviolin]

With these type of chinrest, the barrels are slightly larger/bulkier, the feet are not linked and the points of contact points on the violin are more outwards, further away from the saddle.
How does this usually affect the sound?

[David Burgess]

27 minutes ago, Daviolin said:

How does this usually affect the sound?

Depends on the fiddle. Also depends on the tightness of the clamps, the fit of the chinrest, and the cushioning material.

[Daviolin]

43 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Depends on the fiddle. Also depends on the tightness of the clamps, the fit of the chinrest, and the cushioning material.

I know it depends on the violin, but surely there's a general rule. That's why I said "usually".

[Andrew Victor]

I hate them, they are a damn nuisance and may jut into your neck uncomfortably.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Personal observation:

Generally, I've observed and experienced more significance between bass rib and block mounted chinrests effect on some fiddles than I have with the clamp type... Again, effects depend on the fiddle and there may be other factors at work.

[Mark Norfleet]

1 hour ago, Daviolin said:

I know it depends on the violin, but surely there's a general rule. That's why I said "usually".

The general rule is that there is no general rule, at least that I have heard of or observed.  Usually players are far more focused on fit, comfort and how they might affect their playing when selecting a chinrest.

I also agree with David and Jeffrey.

[Daviolin]

3 hours ago, Andrew Victor said:

I hate them, they are a damn nuisance and may jut into your neck uncomfortably.

I feel absolutely no difference when playing, but I get what you mean.

[Mark Norfleet]

4 hours ago, Andrew Victor said:

I hate them, they are a damn nuisance and may jut into your neck uncomfortably.

You might find the more recently available titanium versions more comfortable as the pads are smaller and protrude a bit less.

[Don Noon]

I too hate them for neck irritation.  Tonewise, these clamps are heavier than most, but chinrest weights are all over the place depending on design and material.  Mass does make some difference in the lower frequencies.  As for the independent clamps vs. ganged, there's not going to be any difference, especially for center-mount types where it's clamping to the endblock.

[The Violin Beautiful]

I’ve always liked the Hill brackets best for the chinrests on my own violins. They cost more than the U-shaped brackets on the “standard” model chinrests, and since most players don’t seem to care as much about the hardware as they do about the shape of the cup, I tend to order the standard model unless asked otherwise. I have heard some people say they find the Hill style uncomfortable. Maybe it’s my own physiognomy, but I’ve never found them at all uncomfortable. I hesitate to say that they’re heavier since designs very so much and weights are all over the place.

I have some customers that believe very strongly in the impact of the chinrest on tone. A famous concertmaster of one of the big orchestras in my area used to keep an assortment of chinrests and “adjust” by switching them until he found his favorite. It seems that the choice of side mount versus center mount makes the biggest difference, although I’m not entirely sure whether the difference is due to a change in body resonance or something to do with the player (like feeling more relaxed or simply changing the position of the ear just enough to sound louder). 

[M Alpert]

I agree with the wise advice above.

I would only add that it truly does seem that there is not a general rule, what kind is better for sound.

I have been surprised, that one violin seems to resonate better with a side mounted rest, whereas another clearly works better with a block mounted one. Who knows why...?

I would say, that more often they seem to resonate better with a block mounted chinrest, which makes some sense. But maybe 60-70%?  I have not counted, nor tried it systematically.

I think perhaps the typical shoulder rest, and its clamping pressure on the back, inhibits resonance more.

[Daviolin]

Side mount vs center mount does make a difference in tone. The many times heard argument of "The sound may change because you change the position of the ear" is complete bullocks, considering that most people use Guarneri chinrest models, so the cup is on the exact same place as the side mounted ones, the only thing that changes is really the mounting location on the violin. And also we can test the sound with the violin further away from the shoulder.

If a chinrest makes me change the location or the angle of the violin relatively to my body, I simply won't use it.

[Daviolin]

12 minutes ago, M Alpert said:

I agree with the wise advice above.

I would only add that it truly does seem that there is not a general rule, what kind is better for sound.

I have been surprised, that one violin seems to resonate better with a side mounted rest, whereas another clearly works better with a block mounted one. Who knows why...?

I would say, that more often they seem to resonate better with a block mounted chinrest, which makes some sense. But maybe 60-70%?  I have not counted, nor tried it systematically.

I think perhaps the typical shoulder rest, and its clamping pressure on the back, inhibits resonance more.

I agree... There must be a reason for like "90%"of the soloists and expensive violins you see everywhere have center mounted chinrests (Guarneri model or very similar). I have tried it myself on several violins and usually prefer the center mounted tone.

The shoulder rest impacts the same or slightly more, but is a lot more predictable, it usually makes the sound warmer.

[Don Noon]

39 minutes ago, M Alpert said:

I would only add that it truly does seem that there is not a general rule, what kind is better for sound.

A dozen years ago I tested 4 different violins with 5 different chinrests (plus NO chinrest), and found a couple of general rules that don't help all that much:

1.  The heavier the chinrest, the more the CBR and B mode frequencies will drop.

2.  Sidemount chinrests tend to have most effect on the CBR, lowering the frequency and increasing the amplitude (presumably by introducing more asymmetry to this symmetric-ish mode).

So there are some tendencies in the low frequencies, although it depends on the instrument and the player to decide what is preferable.

But the low frequencies are not nearly as important to the player as the rest of the frequency range... and what happens in the rest of the frequency range is much more complex and unpredictable.  And there ARE significant differences there, too.

[Will Turner]

If it is comfortable and allows for ease of play, I find the tone of my violin is much better in regards to chin rests.

As for shoulder rests…

I have pondered the Pirastro Korfkerrest 2.0 (the maple one).   Supposedly a difference in performance/tone.

[Daviolin]

31 minutes ago, Will Turner said:

If it is comfortable and allows for ease of play, I find the tone of my violin is much better in regards to chin rests.

You mean the Hill type brackets sound much better on your violins?

[Jeffrey Holmes]

22 hours ago, Daviolin said:

I agree... There must be a reason for like "90%"of the soloists and expensive violins you see everywhere have center mounted chinrests (Guarneri model or very similar). I have tried it myself on several violins and usually prefer the center mounted tone..

I haven't noticed that... and I see a good number of both on great fiddles. The JD (John Day) chinrest (rib mount) was relatively popular for a good while (while a very good fitting maker in England produced them).  Hill clamps.  For me, the most comfortable I've used. The old style Kaufman (a little different than the ones I see from most suppliers) was another popular rib mount.

If there is an advantage to block mounted chin rests that can be sited, besides the personal comfort of a specific player, it's probably that it clamps onto a stronger area of the instrument. The block area.  Less chance of distorting the rib from over tightening,

Seems a chinrest is a very personal choice, which often trumps the effect on sound.... and has been said a number of times, I don't there isn't a reliable rule concerning sonic effect. Depends on the fiddle (and the fiddler).

[David Burgess]

8 hours ago, The Violin Beautiful said:

I have heard some people say they find the Hill style uncomfortable. Maybe it’s my own physiognomy, but I’ve never found them at all uncomfortable.

After having my breastbone sawn down the middle, which resulted in a slight reshaping upon re-assembly, both styles of clamp are now uncomfortable.

[Don Noon]

15 hours ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

If there is an advantage to block mounted chin rests that can be sited, besides the personal comfort of a specific player, it's probably that it clamps onto a stronger area of the instrument. The block area.  Less chance of distorting the rib from over tightening,

I'm not sure how many makers do this, but I put in rib supports about where the clamps of a sidemount chinrest would go.

My main problem with Hill clamps is that I don't use a shoulder rest, so those clunky feet dig into my collarbone.  Stradpet makes a much slimmer version, but still sticks out more than the U-clamp.

[bardia]

1 hour ago, Don Noon said:

من مطمئن نیستم که چند سازنده این کار را انجام می دهند، اما من تکیه گاه های دنده ای را در مورد اینکه گیره های تکیه گاه چانه کناری قرار می گیرند، قرار دادم.

مشکل اصلی من با گیره های هیل این است که از تکیه گاه شانه استفاده نمی کنم، بنابراین آن پاهای درهم و برهم در استخوان ترقوه ام فرو می روند. Stradpet نسخه بسیار باریک تری تولید می کند، اما همچنان بیشتر از U-clamp ظاهر می شود.

I use exactly this method to reinforce the rib in violin making to prevent any issues caused by the force of the chainrest. This method is especially effective in cases where the violin is subjected to various pressures, ensuring that the structure of the instrument does not suffer from any damage or problems. Adding reinforcements in specific areas, like the rib, not only provides more strength to the violin but also gives it the proper flexibility to better withstand external pressures or those caused by the player’s technique.

One of the main challenges in violin design is managing the forces applied to different parts of the instrument. Specifically, the chainrest (which refers to the force applied at the point of the chain attachment on the side of the violin) can create unwanted or imbalanced pressure, which, if not properly controlled, may lead to distortion or damage to delicate areas like the rib. Therefore, reinforcing these sections with specific methods, such as adding extra layers of wood or using different material combinations, helps maintain the balance and strength of the violin.

In this process, I typically use wood with specific density and properties that match the overall structure of the violin, while effectively supporting the force of the chainrest. These reinforcements ensure that the instrument is more resistant to various conditions and enhances its performance in producing the desired sound.

[bardia]

1 hour ago, Don Noon said:

من مطمئن نیستم که چند سازنده این کار را انجام می دهند، اما من تکیه گاه های دنده ای را در مورد اینکه گیره های تکیه گاه چانه کناری قرار می گیرند، قرار دادم.

مشکل اصلی من با گیره های هیل این است که از تکیه گاه شانه استفاده نمی کنم، بنابراین آن پاهای درهم و برهم در استخوان ترقوه ام فرو می روند. Stradpet نسخه بسیار باریک تری تولید می کند، اما همچنان بیشتر از U-clamp ظاهر می شود.

In violin making, one of the most important factors to consider is the strength and safety factor of the instrument. A violin, as both an artistic and musical instrument, must not only produce a unique sound but also possess the durability and stability needed for long-term use under various conditions. A well-made violin should be designed and constructed in a way that allows it to withstand the physical pressures of playing, environmental changes in temperature and humidity, and the natural wear and tear that occurs over time.

 

Strength in violin making depends not only on the choice of materials used but also on the construction methods, precision in assembly, and the overall coherence of the various parts of the instrument. The woods selected for making a violin must have characteristics such as strength, appropriate density, and sufficient flexibility to withstand the pressures and vibrations caused by playing and contact with the hands and bow. For this reason, the careful selection of wood for various components like the top plate, back plate, and ribs is of paramount importance.

 

On the other hand, the safety factor in violin making refers to anticipating the potential conditions that might cause damage to the instrument over time, and minimizing these risks as much as possible. For example, areas where greater pressure is applied by the player or from external factors such as temperature and humidity changes should be reinforced with additional layers or reinforcements to effectively prevent damage. These reinforcements can be applied to areas like the neck, scroll, or joints to make the violin more resistant to potential harm.

 

Long-term durability of a violin, especially under varying environmental conditions, must also be considered. Violins are exposed to temperature and humidity changes that can cause the wood to expand or contract, potentially altering the shape of the instrument. Using wood with the proper moisture content and undergoing specific processes such as drying and preparation before its use in construction plays a crucial role in maintaining the stability of the violin.

 

Ultimately, the quality of craftsmanship and attention to detail during the production process not only affects the instrument's appearance and sound but also contributes to its longevity and optimal performance over decades and even centuries. Violins are typically played for decades or even centuries, and this long lifespan is only possible through precise scientific and engineering principles in construction, material selection, and design.

 

Therefore, a violin maker must not only focus on achieving the desired sound quality but also consider the strength and safety factor of the instrument over time, ensuring that the violin remains functional and resilient under all environmental conditions and contin

uous use.

 

[GeorgeH]

Alfred Eugene Lanini c. 1918 did this, too.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

13 hours ago, Don Noon said:

I'm not sure how many makers do this, but I put in rib supports about where the clamps of a sidemount chinrest would go.

 

I've seen very sImilar installations in Gatti family (Turin) fiddles, 

[The Violin Beautiful]

On 3/8/2025 at 10:23 AM, Daviolin said:

Side mount vs center mount does make a difference in tone. The many times heard argument of "The sound may change because you change the position of the ear" is complete bullocks, considering that most people use Guarneri chinrest models, so the cup is on the exact same place as the side mounted ones, the only thing that changes is really the mounting location on the violin. And also we can test the sound with the violin further away from the shoulder.

If a chinrest makes me change the location or the angle of the violin relatively to my body, I simply won't use it.

Not complete bollocks at all. First of all, many side-mounted chinrest users put more of their jawbones into the cup and place the left ear closer to the ffs. Users of the Guarneri chinrest don’t all hold the violin the same way, but I do see a lot more who have a more upright posture with it. Second, while the Guarneri is indeed the most popular model, it is nowhere near 90% in its use among players at various levels. Professionals often use it, but many use other models. The concertmaster I mentioned in my previous post was a huge fan of a side mount model and he inspired a number of friends to follow suit. It would be a lot more convenient for shops if players really were that happy with one chinrest model, but that is not reality, and anyone who has sold, adjusted, or repaired a few violins will have had some experience with customers on the hunt for a chinrest that fits them uniquely. There is even a business devoted to making custom chinrests for players, many of them professionals. 

[dpappas]

On 3/8/2025 at 1:37 PM, Will Turner said:

If it is comfortable and allows for ease of play, I find the tone of my violin is much better in regards to chin rests.

As for shoulder rests…

I have pondered the Pirastro Korfkerrest 2.0 (the maple one).   Supposedly a difference in performance/tone.

Will

I've not seen any sonic differences on spectrum analysis (playing semitone bowed scales or bridge impact) with the korferrest model 2.  The same goes for looped recordings with and without that shoulder rest.  BUT for me it's incredibly comfortable, and that has a bigger effect on the sound than anything else.  As has been said before, these are personal comfort choices and that comfort is a bigger impact on tone than anything else, probably.