Violin of unknown provenance (photos)

[Panhandler]

No label. Maybe someone could id it. Thank you.

Edited March 6 by Panhandler

[Ratcliffiddles]

It looks like a late 19th century Markneukirchen violin which has possibly received some harmful over-varnish treatment, with a scroll from a different,  much more interesting and older instrument.

[Blank face]

Some Vogtlandish violins, especially from Klingenthal, had in the 19th century a very Neapolitan style of scroll making, which led to a lot of confusion. I would assume that this scroll is probably original.

[Brad Dorsey]

Based on the saddle and the back of the peg box, is there any chance that it’s Mittenwald?  I would expect to see a delta on the back of a Markneukirchen/Klingenthal peg box.

[Panhandler]

I should note, the saddle in the photos is not original. It was a single piece, made of some brown wood, not ebony, extending through the top plate into the ribs, and flush with them.

[Blank face]

1 hour ago, Panhandler said:

I should note, the saddle in the photos is not original. It was a single piece, made of some brown wood, not ebony, extending through the top plate into the ribs, and flush with them.

Could you provide some better in focus photos, especially of the sides? I would also like to know if the front is one piece. And how long is the back length, without button, in mm?

[Panhandler]

Single piece top plate, the grain is wider in the center. Back length (without button) is 359mm by measuring tape. Will try to get better photos.

Edited March 7 by Panhandler

[Blank face]

2 hours ago, Panhandler said:

Single piece top plate, the grain is wider in the center.

This would be unlikely for a Markneukirchen region violin, if right. So together with the scroll it might be something else, though I don't think Mittenwald.

Maybe it is older than assumed, just looking younger due to the odd varnish.

[Violadamore]

On 3/7/2025 at 11:44 AM, Panhandler said:

Single piece top plate, the grain is wider in the center. Back length (without button) is 359mm by measuring tape. Will try to get better photos.

When I see something that screams "Saxon Trade Fiddle!" at first glance, but then on close inspection shows details (such as the scroll, corners, varnish, and one-piece top here) that don't match the "usual" signs of Vogtland/Bohemian mass production, I start considering "rural British".  Amateur makers following a Saxon example could be another possibility.

[Ratcliffiddles]

On 3/7/2025 at 4:44 PM, Panhandler said:

Single piece top plate, the grain is wider in the center. Back length (without button) is 359mm by measuring tape. Will try to get better photos.

Are you sure it is one-piece?? Although it is not clear on the bass side, but from what I see the grain orientation on both bass and treble sides runs from the edges inward, which would make the from 2 pieces. A clear picture of the bass side side grain would be useful to confirm. 

[Panhandler]

I managed to dig up some photos from a luthier that did repairs to it a while back, maybe that will help. Maybe the top plate is two pieces? Not sure anymore.

 

 

Edited March 9 by Panhandler

[Blank face]

Is there by any chance a photo of the open box with blocks and linings visible, too? Difficult to tell if it's a one piece or jointed plate, but it doesn't look perfectly bookmatched (mirrored).

[Bob K]

I am presuming that people have noticed that the scroll is grafted (and bushed).

[GeorgeH]

Does the presence of a locator pin in the top provide a hint to its origin?

[match]

6 hours ago, Blank face said:

Difficult to tell if it's a one piece or jointed plate, but it doesn't look perfectly bookmatched (mirrored).

I believe the top is made of two pieces; at these points, the grain seems not to continue:

But would a one-piece top be a reason to rule out MarkSchön? I'm pretty sure that I have violins from there with one-piece tops (from the 20th century).

And yes, I also know these kind of scrolls from Klingenthal (Brunndöbra):

[Panhandler]

6 hours ago, Blank face said:

Is there by any chance a photo of the open box with blocks and linings visible, too?

Nope, sorry

 

4 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

Does the presence of a locator pin in the top provide a hint to its origin?

Uh, is that what the black smudge is at the bottom right of the c-bout tip?

 

 

Edited March 9 by Panhandler

[GeorgeH]

1 hour ago, Panhandler said:

Uh, is that what the black smudge is at the bottom right of the c-bout tip?

No, it looks like there is (was?) a locator pin just above the saddle:

[Blank face]

2 hours ago, match said:

continue:

But would a one-piece top be a reason to rule out MarkSchön? I'm pretty sure that I have violins from there with one-piece tops (from the 20th century).

Yes, looks jointed as far it’s possible to tell from the photos. I would think during the 19th century it would be unlikely, but not impossible to find a one piece top from the Markneukirchen area. Maybe it was just tradition to joint it.

[Ratcliffiddles]

13 hours ago, Blank face said:

Is there by any chance a photo of the open box with blocks and linings visible, too? Difficult to tell if it's a one piece or jointed plate, but it doesn't look perfectly bookmatched (mirrored).

The front is (to me) clearly from 2 pieces, whether you can see the joint or not, as the grain orientation is opposite for the 2 pieces.