Help for old violin identification

[guy with old violin]

For background, this violin played in the LA Phil in the early 1900s by a man named Jesse Gutierrez, and we are trying to find the original maker.

[Bownut]

Dear guywitholdviolin, There seems to be a little myth-making at work, here. From what is easily available on the LA Phil Website, the orchestra was founded in 1919, so " early 1900s" seems, shall we say, a bit unreliable as " evidence". The question leads me to a train of thought about how the, let's call it, " relative quality" of instruments played by professionals in orchestras has developed over the last hundred years or so. I remember one book ( British Violin?) had lists, albeit rather incomplete, of instruments known to gave been played in major British ensembles at a particular point in time. To put it otherwise, how do the luthiers and dealers active here, in touch with the flow of good fiddles, percieve the " instrument-riches" of string-players to have changed over time, in their own backyard, or more globally. Does anyone know if this is being studied at all?

The violin in question seems, from the somewhat inedequate pictorial evidence, unlikely to have been the first-choice violin of a musician in a professional orchestra. But I am only a player: let's see what the experts have to say.

[jacobsaunders]

One dreads to think how Mr Gutierrez was tormented by his colleagues in the LA Phil for having stickers on the fingerboard to tell him where the different positions were located

[Bownut]

Jolly useful, I would say! Although, by now, I can locate 3rd position, starting from below, ( coming down is another matter, entirely!)  fairly well, most of the time! Mr. Saunders: In your " backyard" the most prestigious orchestra has a wealth of endowments for the use of it's players, I hear. 

[deans]

Back in PA when we used to hunt for fiddles, it seems that 50% were played in the Philadelphia orchestra. We figured around 1920 it had 50,000 players. 

[violinsRus]

The body appears to be refinishing, at least compared to the scroll varnish. 

[guy with old violin]

Ok, you guys are being kind of rude, those are finger tapes from my sister and we're not originally on the violin of course, please just help me find the maker 

[guy with old violin]

Also, it was said the instrument played in the LA Phil, I don't know if it really has since I identify it. No I didn't make up that it played in the LA Phil, My grandfather had told me.

[Bownut]

56 minutes ago, deans said:

 

To further my enquiries: how are " Those Fabulous Philadelphians" doing for fiddles, these days? I do know one but, unfortunately, not a string player!

[Bownut]

Dear "guy", I do not think I have been at all rude to you in pointing out that, a) The LA Phil was not yet founded at the time I take it you meant and b) this sort of instrument is unlikely to have been used in a professional orchestra. Mr. Saunders is renowned for his dry humour; I was, as you may have guessed, being jocularly self-deprecating in reply and I assure you he is more than capable of having figured out the chronology of the strips for himself. The fact remains, and it surprises me that I am the first to mention it, the pictures are inadequate to support any half-way serious appraisal of the instrument. There is a post, stating clearly, with examples, of what is required, at or near the top of these pages, to which you should refer.

[guy with old violin]

So it's a low quality instrument? Okay, it plays really good I just wanna know the maker.

[Blank face]

The scroll looks very nice to me, but there’s a wide gap at the button, looks like filled with some ugly glue or the like. 
The body was vandalized by stripping most of the original varnish except at the outer parts of the belly, not to mention the badly repaired long cracks, so it might be difficult to decide if both parts belonged together from the start.

In any case more in focus photos, according to the description in the pinned thread, would be necessary to tell something meaningful.

[guy with old violin]

I've gathered more information. The relative low quality of the instrument seems to be because Jesse was a Native American, low quality violins were handed to them in droves, and it seems he was super good at the violin to be able to get this to play in the LA Phil well, I've scavenged some information about when he could've played in the LA Phil, it seems to be from early 1920s to 1930s. The luthier that repaired this before we just recently did was my great grandfather, he made 5 violins, but I assume at this time he was still a beginner. My dad had found this violin in a bag broken when he was 13-14, and at that point, probably asked his beginning luthiers grandfather to repair it. In any case it plays Wonderfully! It rings out and fills any room with ease and I love playing it more than any violin I've played before (including my great grandfather's first made violin). Do you guys assume it's a factory violin then? I'm kinda confused.

[FiddleDoug]

Looks like the button/back might be coming apart. If it is, you should take the tension off the strings ASAP, and get it to a luthier for repair, before the neck blows off of the thing.

[guy with old violin]

We fixed the button by the way. It does look like it's gonna pop because of the glue being clear violin glue.

[La Folia]

I think the violin will be hard to identify from the photos, especially since it's missing most of the original varnish.  Better pictures according to directions here might help.

As some have noted, there are some problems that we can see.  The neck has come loose, and could break the button and maybe the top.  If it was repaired, it was repaired badly, and it could still come loose.  The crack repairs probably detract from the value of the violin, but they can be redone if the value warrants a repair.  The missing varnish detracts from the value.  The purfling looks strange, especially on the top.  Did someone sand it?  It's hard to know because the photo is quite fuzzy in that area.

It looks to me like it could be a mass-produced violin, but it doesn't really look bad to me, except for the very dark varnish.  So I'm not sure.  It is quite believable that someone with a not very valuable instrument could have played in the LA Philharmonic in its early years, or especially in the 1930s.  If it sounds great, that's wonderful.  Better pictures might reveal whether it could be a valuable instrument.  That might be a long shot, but it might be worth a try.

[Guido]

On 2/10/2025 at 11:27 AM, guy with old violin said:

We fixed the button by the way. It does look like it's gonna pop because of the glue being clear violin glue.

You may want to undo this and set the neck to a proper angle. Projection looks awfully low.

Curious what “clear violin glue” you may have used here?

[Don Noon]

On 2/9/2025 at 1:42 PM, guy with old violin said:

My dad had found this violin in a bag broken when he was 13-14...   Do you guys assume it's a factory violin then?

There are certainly others hanging around Maestronet with a lot more expertise than I have about old fiddle origins, but they don't seem to be saying a whole lot.  To me, given that it was found broken in a bag, the odds are that it started out life as a generic commercial violin, or as they say around here, "the usual".  I see nothing in the photos that jumps out as anything otherwise, and it looks to be refinished and repaired rather poorly.  If it plays well, play it and don't worry too much about where it came from.