Fine grained growth rings.

[HoGo]

13 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Are you saying Strad used one piece tops with no preference for whether the narrower grain was on one side or the other? 

That's what I understood.

[Ratcliffiddles]

18 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Peter

When you say later growth I assume you mean chronologically and that , once mature , a tree will tend to put on narrower growth rings as it ages. Are you saying Strad used one piece tops with no preference for whether the narrower grain was on one side or the other? 

Nathan,

Yes, chronologically speaking, and yes, the growth trend of the rings as the tree ages tends to be negative.  

Almost what I am saying. What I am saying is that the latest chronological rings on his one piece fronts are found equally frequently (if not more) on the bass side than on the treble side. 

[JacksonMaberry]

1 hour ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

Nathan,

Yes, chronologically speaking, and yes, the growth trend of the rings as the tree ages tends to be negative.  

Almost what I am saying. What I am saying is that the latest chronological rings on his one piece fronts are found equally frequently (if not more) on the bass side than on the treble side. 

So now we just need to design a test to play a handful of each types of one piece strad and see which sound better.

[David Burgess]

23 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

So now we just need to design a test to play a handful of each types of one piece strad and see which sound better.

Yup. Easy-peasy. Except that whatever the outcome, those who have allowed themselves to become highly invested in a different outcome will probably complain vociferously about the testing protocol, and may even use it in an attempt to substantiate their claim that no human has ever landed on the moon.

[JacksonMaberry]

2 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Yup. Easy-peasy. Except that whatever the outcome, those who have allowed themselves to become highly invested in a different outcome will probably complain vociferously about the testing protocol, and may even use it in an attempt to substantiate their claim that no human has ever landed on the moon.

Guaranteed!

[uguntde]

On 2/13/2025 at 12:41 AM, sospiri said:

It's very nice. More pics please.

 

Here are some more pics. This instrument gave me a lot of joy over the years. It has had some very delicate repairs. The bushing of the pegs is almost invisible, probably done with shavings. The pegsbox must once have had a hole to hang it up - the filling of this is to a lower standard. The edge has been repaired in placed. Does anyone know who made the bridge? L. Corsale Oakland. I assume that the pegs are also from someone in the US. I use currently Warchal strings but may want something bighter, but I am avoiding strings which put a lot of pressure on the front.

[sospiri]

Thanks for the extra pics. That's a lot of growth rings, a very old tree. I assume that it was made in Mittenwald?

[Ratcliffiddles]

18 hours ago, sospiri said:

Thanks for the extra pics. That's a lot of growth rings, a very old tree. I assume that it was made in Mittenwald?

I shouldn't think so. It looks totally typical of the "Stainer model" Richard Duke used ( as well as the other "Strad" model", which doesn't look anything like a Strad) And that scroll is unmistakably a Duke. 

[sospiri]

1 hour ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

I shouldn't think so. It looks totally typical of the "Stainer model" Richard Duke used ( as well as the other "Strad" model", which doesn't look anything like a Strad) And that scroll is unmistakably a Duke. 

That's good to know. I was wondering if someone else was going to make an attribution.

 

On 2/12/2025 at 9:58 PM, uguntde said:

This one is a Duke - if one can know what a Duke is. It has the stamp and someone spent lots of money on it.

 

[CantPlayChaconne]

On 2/7/2025 at 1:21 PM, Don Noon said:

A knot indicates something about how the wood was cut (more likely slab), which can matter.  Also, the knot has some local disturbance to the grain direction, which might do something.

 

I have an example here of a violin (English, I hope! That's what I paid for anyway!) that has quite beautiful perturbations in the top plate wood grain in the corners. I think it's visually interesting if nothing else. Not sure if you would call this grain spacing tight or wide. Someone told me they thought the wood was "Hazel Pine" but I am not sure about that.

 

 

 

[Wood Butcher]

36 minutes ago, CantPlayChaconne said:

Someone told me they thought the wood was "Hazel Pine" but I am not sure about that.

 

 

It is a disturbance in the grain caused by a knot. Hazel looks different.
 

[uguntde]

On 2/17/2025 at 7:43 PM, sospiri said:

That's good to know. I was wondering if someone else was going to make an attribution.

 

 

This London school lacks an equivalent to the Mittenwald community that keeps track of the past - I would know where for getting a Kloz authenticated. But who knows really what a Duke is and what not, and who can keep Duke I and II apart? All we can say is that there are lovely violins with a Duke London stamp which are distinct from German or French violins of that time.

[JacksonMaberry]

1 minute ago, uguntde said:

This London school lacks an equivalent to the Mittenwald community that keeps track of the past - I would know where for getting a Kloz authenticated. But who knows really what a Duke is and what not, and who can keep Duke I and II apart? All we can say is that there are lovely violins with a Duke London stamp which are distinct from German or French violins of that time.

Totally untrue, there are specialists including @Ben Hebbert

[uguntde]

3 minutes ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Totally untrue, there are specialists including @Ben Hebbert

Ok, thanks for the advice. But don't you see a difference to how this is done in Mittenwald? There are also just a lot more instruments around.

[martin swan]

47 minutes ago, uguntde said:

This London school lacks an equivalent to the Mittenwald community that keeps track of the past - I would know where for getting a Kloz authenticated. But who knows really what a Duke is and what not, and who can keep Duke I and II apart? All we can say is that there are lovely violins with a Duke London stamp which are distinct from German or French violins of that time.

John Dilwoth, Andrew Fairfax, Tim Toft, John Basford ...

All these people could give you a reliable opinion.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

On 2/14/2025 at 12:51 PM, Ratcliffiddles said:

Nathan,

Yes, chronologically speaking, and yes, the growth trend of the rings as the tree ages tends to be negative.  

Almost what I am saying. What I am saying is that the latest chronological rings on his one piece fronts are found equally frequently (if not more) on the bass side than on the treble side. 

Trees tend to add the same amount of wood growth each year (ignoring seasonal variations) so as the diameter of the tree gets bigger each year the annual rings get narrower.

[CantPlayChaconne]

5 hours ago, JacksonMaberry said:

Totally untrue, there are specialists including @Ben Hebbert

Seconding the props to Ben, his episodes on the omo podcast re: authentication and identification are also super interesting. 

[martin swan]

14 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Trees tend to add the same amount of wood growth each year (ignoring seasonal variations) so as the diameter of the tree gets bigger each year the annual rings get narrower.

This isn't quite correct, certainly for conifers.

As the tree grows taller it adds more and more wood each year until it reaches full maturity.

 

 

 

[Ratcliffiddles]

19 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Trees tend to add the same amount of wood growth each year (ignoring seasonal variations) so as the diameter of the tree gets bigger each year the annual rings get narrower.

That would be ignoring not just seasonal variations, but a lot of other factors. 

[nathan slobodkin]

On 2/21/2025 at 8:24 PM, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Trees tend to add the same amount of wood growth each year (ignoring seasonal variations) so as the diameter of the tree gets bigger each year the annual rings get narrower.

yes except for close to the center of the tree where growth in the first years of life is very slow. I don't know tthe shade tolerance of the European spruces but some of the north American species can survive in relative shade for some time waiting for an opportunity from overstory removal. Depending on the size of the tree at harvest the progression of ring spacing could go either way.

[HoGo]

Young EU spruce is shade tolerant but it wouldn't sprout in the first place if there were not at least some light in his position. It will grow extremely fast when in shade sometimes more than 1 m per year till it reaches 20 m (or top of surrounding canopy), that is within first 20 years, after that it slows down the growth to height and a mature growth starts producing as much wood as climate allows. Spruce growing in open land will produce 5-6 mm of wood a year while one growing in thick forest may produce 1 mm even if they are hundred meters apart.

In managed forests here the spruce forests are left to grow for 50-60 years before they are harvested. After that they slow down production of wood and are much more suspectible to diseases or pests so it is more economical to harvest and grow new generation. Only in rougher climetes or higher elevations they are left longer, up to 80 years to grow to usable lumber size. Of course for violin makers this is the age when the best wood only starts growing.

[uguntde]

On 2/21/2025 at 10:18 PM, martin swan said:

John Dilwoth, Andrew Fairfax, Tim Toft, John Basford ...

All these people could give you a reliable opinion.

And Martin Swan. What do they know about Duke? - close to nothing - slightly different to the Mittenwald school. There are too few instruments in the Duke world available to compare with. Or too many,  which are good or bad copies.

[martin swan]

58 minutes ago, uguntde said:

And Martin Swan. What do they know about Duke? - close to nothing - slightly different to the Mittenwald school. There are too few instruments in the Duke world available to compare with. Or too many,  which are good or bad copies.

I'm no expert, but the people I mentioned are.

Maybe you have some personal agenda here - otherwise you would surely willing to concede that English experts might know more about English violins than you do.

I once had a client (a serious conservatoire student) who came from Vienna to try out a Jacob Fendt del Gesu copy, according to John Dilworth probably one of the first English del Gesu copies and definitely one of the finest.  The client loved it, took it back to Vienna, tried it with colleagues in the Opera hall - it outplayed the best Italian violins, the sound was exactly what he wanted and he resolved to buy it. Whereupon he took it to a dealer in Vienna who said "who the f++k is Jacob Fendt? How does anyone know what a Fendt is or isn't?".

The client told me that according to this dealer the violin was overpriced and that he therefore wouldn't be buying it. 

Ironically the same Viennese dealer had several years previously bought a Gabriel Lembock (Viennese) del Gesu copy at a Sothebys sale, and paid vastly more than anyone thought was rational. "Who the f++k is Gabriel Lembock", all the English dealers cried ...

This episode taught me a lot about the violin business 

 

[uguntde]

On 2/23/2025 at 10:13 PM, martin swan said:

I'm no expert, but the people I mentioned are.

Maybe you have some personal agenda here - otherwise you would surely willing to concede that English experts might know more about English violins than you do.

I once had a client (a serious conservatoire student) who came from Vienna to try out a Jacob Fendt del Gesu copy, according to John Dilworth probably one of the first English del Gesu copies and definitely one of the finest.  The client loved it, took it back to Vienna, tried it with colleagues in the Opera hall - it outplayed the best Italian violins, the sound was exactly what he wanted and he resolved to buy it. Whereupon he took it to a dealer in Vienna who said "who the f++k is Jacob Fendt? How does anyone know what a Fendt is or isn't?".

The client told me that according to this dealer the violin was overpriced and that he therefore wouldn't be buying it. 

Ironically the same Viennese dealer had several years previously bought a Gabriel Lembock (Viennese) del Gesu copy at a Sothebys sale, and paid vastly more than anyone thought was rational. "Who the f++k is Gabriel Lembock", all the English dealers cried ...

This episode taught me a lot about the violin business 

 

 

Dear Martin, I have no hidden agenda, but I can’t always respond quickly. The Duke I showed I purchased cheaply many years ago, and I have no intention to sell it. As you know I am not a violin dealer or expert, just an enthusiast.

There are of course lots of English experts who know more about English violins than German or French ones. The names you mentioned including yourself are well-known for their expertise. Regarding my violin I am not completely convinced that it is Duke, but I think there is a good chance. If I take a Duke to a German violin dealer, I will probably be told to ask someone in England.

My point is that not so much is known about the Duke family (I and II) because there are not so many good instruments available and quality of Duke-stamped violins from England varies, and whether they are all from the same maker nobody knows. In this I am not considering these cheap German violins with a Duke stamp. This lack of knowledge is why one often sees instruments sold as Duke school, for example the rather nice viola you have for sale.

This situation is in my humble opinion different for Kloz family instruments, simply because there was a school over several generations with many makers and the history has been worked up, there are likely also more documents left (some shown in the Mittenwald museum). Hence it is much easier to assign instruments to makers. There are of course Kloz violins with Stainer and other labels but there is a large number of Kloz family violins which can be assigned to a particular Kloz family member.

Sorry if I gave the impression that the UK does not have good and reputable experts. This was not my intention.

 

[Schnurri]

On 2/8/2025 at 12:50 PM, Victor Roman said:

I noticed that fine rings make for a "sweeter" tone. Wide rings - more open tone, better for larger places. I do not think it is a hard rule.

Thanks. I have one with growth rings like hair. It needs repairing so I have not been able to play it yet.