Fine grained growth rings.

[Schnurri]

For some odd reason I love very fine growth rings.

 

Do fine growth rings make a difference over the wide rings. Sometimes I see a violin with a knot or two. Does that matter in the tone??

[Don Noon]

3 hours ago, Schnurri said:

Does that matter in the tone??

No.

[Don Noon]

Longer answer:

These observable features in themselves won't do much, but it is possible that they are correlated with other wood properties that might matter.

Closely spaced rings I have not observed to be strongly correlated with relevant acoustic parameters, but I have not had enough samples to see if there is a weaker correlation.  There could be.

A knot indicates something about how the wood was cut (more likely slab), which can matter.  Also, the knot has some local disturbance to the grain direction, which might do something.

BUT... whatever these variations are in the wood, a good maker can compensate somewhat for them.  And violins all turn out a bit different anyway, so in the end it's really, really difficult to say what causes what.

[JacksonMaberry]

There was a paper published by a guitar maker in the GAL journal years back that explored whether there is a correlation between density and ring spacing.

There was not. 

[Victor Roman]

On 2/7/2025 at 10:12 AM, Schnurri said:

For some odd reason I love very fine growth rings.

 

Do fine growth rings make a difference over the wide rings. Sometimes I see a violin with a knot or two. Does that matter in the tone??

I noticed that fine rings make for a "sweeter" tone. Wide rings - more open tone, better for larger places. I do not think it is a hard rule.

[JacksonMaberry]

22 minutes ago, Victor Roman said:

do not think it is a hard rule.

I don't think so either, I can think of as many exceptions as not. 

[uguntde]

I have an old English violin with a one-piece front which is very wide-grained on the bass side and fine-grained on the treble side. I am not saying this is the reason for its nice sound, but it makes it is definitely an interesting artistic feature.

 

 

[David Burgess]

On 2/8/2025 at 2:50 PM, Victor Roman said:

I noticed that fine rings make for a "sweeter" tone. Wide rings - more open tone, better for larger places. I do not think it is a hard rule.

Beliefs do have a special way of seeming true, to the believer.

[John Harte]

This study may be of interest, or may not...: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0002554  Note that one of the authors is Terry Borman. 

From the abstract: “No significant differences were found between the median densities of the modern and the antique violins, however the density difference between wood grains of early and late growth was significantly smaller in the classical Cremonese violins compared with modern violins, in both the top (Spruce) and back (Maple) plates (p = 0.028 and 0.008, respectively). The mean density differential (SE) of the top plates of the modern and classical violins was 274 (26.6) and 183 (11.7) gram/liter. For the back plates, the values were 128 (2.6) and 115 (2.0) gram/liter. These differences in density differentials may reflect similar changes in stiffness distributions, which could directly impact vibrational efficacy or indirectly modify sound radiation via altered damping characteristics.”

[A432]

Benjamin Hebbert has posted a relevant and interesting quotation bearing on this point in his description of the Widhalm violin he's offering (violins, page 2). FWIW, I agree completely.

[HoGo]

On 2/7/2025 at 9:12 AM, Schnurri said:

Do fine growth rings make a difference over the wide rings.

Sure they do! Fine grained spruce sells fester and for higher prices !

[Ratcliffiddles]

13 hours ago, uguntde said:

I have an old English violin with a one-piece front which is very wide-grained on the bass side and fine-grained on the treble side. I am not saying this is the reason for its nice sound, but it makes it is definitely an interesting artistic feature.

So that generally means the oldest rings ( nearer the centre of the tree) on the bass side and the latest growth on the treble side. 

Who wouldn't do that with a one-piece front?

[nathan slobodkin]

Low density and flexibility do not neccesarily go together

I personally like wider grain for larger instruments and if I was to use a one piece top would definitely put the wide grain toward the bass side. Maybe just unreasoned prejudice on my part but my experience is that wood with wider rings feels more flexible across the grain. Also seems to me that any slant to the grain weakens it considerably both flexing side to side and deflection pressing down on the plate. Bending lengthwise the grain width may make less difference but the number of makers who seem to have used wider grained wood for the lower instruments and bass sides leads me to the conclusion that it is a better way to go.

I think there are also big differences in the width of the latewood which change the bending characteristics primarily in the lengthwise direction.  The Nurnberg makers in particular had an affinity for extraordinarily narrow grain but the grain lines themselves are also very thin so the density is not terribly high and some of those instruments sound very nice. I suspect that wider latewood spaced so closely would not work as well.

[Don Noon]

20 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

I suspect that wider latewood spaced so closely would not work as well.

Yup.  I had a board once that had quite variable ring spacing and early/late widths  in it, and sliced it up to see how the properties varied.  The higher percentage of latewood killed the properties... higher density, and significantly lower speed of sound.

[HoGo]

Conifer wood with significantly higher proportion of latewood is likely a reaction wood (compression wood). BTW, Steven Gilchrist, one of the most renowned mandolin makers often uses spruce with very prominent latewood. And with great success. He has made some 900 instruments so he likely knows his craft.

Back to OP, tight grain is also preferrable because it makes cutting edges and f holes more cleanly and smoothly. Wide grained wood will tend to lead tools into cutting steps when going at shallow angle to grain.

[M Alpert]

14 minutes ago, HoGo said:

Conifer wood with significantly higher proportion of latewood is likely a reaction wood (compression wood).

This is an interesting thought. I remember hearing the claim (wish I could remember where I heard it ), that one side of the spruce tree usually makes better tonewood. Perhaps for that reason, that usually there is a measure of stress grown into the tree, resulting in higher density wood on one side?

Or does that sound just like some fanciful myth?

I have only felled a couple of trees, and none of them in the Alps, so my practical experience with such a claim is nil...

[JacksonMaberry]

Wood from the Alps is not inherently better, so I'm sure the trees you felled are just fine. 

[HoGo]

Normally there won't be any reaction wood is straight growing tree. Perhaps down near roots especially if it grows on a slope but above some point the wood would be very similar all around log.

I've got spruce that I split that had slightly thicker late growth on one side of log, not a "full" reaction woo but just slightly "touched" I've got a mandolin top carved out of the most prominent late growth piece just for the fun but haven't used it yet.

[uguntde]

10 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

So that generally means the oldest rings ( nearer the centre of the tree) on the bass side and the latest growth on the treble side. 

Who wouldn't do that with a one-piece front?

I haven't seen many one-piece fronts in violins of this age. In particular not from England.

[Ratcliffiddles]

2 hours ago, uguntde said:

I haven't seen many one-piece fronts in violins of this age. In particular not from England.

There are quite a few one-piece fronts on 18th century English instruments ( many Dukes. Thomas Smith, and others). not so many in Italy at the same time, although plenty before 1700, and interestingly ( to do with grain orientation) there are equally as many pre 1700 Stradivari,  if not more, with the later growth at the treble side rather than the bass. On different Stradivari violins, the later growth from the same log ends up at opposite sides of the belly.  

 

[uguntde]

22 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

There are quite a few one-piece fronts on 18th century English instruments ( many Dukes. Thomas Smith, and others). not so many in Italy at the same time, although plenty before 1700, and interestingly ( to do with grain orientation) there are equally as many pre 1700 Stradivari,  if not more, with the later growth at the treble side rather than the bass. On different Stradivari violins, the later growth from the same log ends up at opposite sides of the belly.  

 

This one is a Duke - if one can know what a Duke is. It has the stamp and someone spent lots of money on it.

[sospiri]

1 hour ago, uguntde said:

This one is a Duke - if one can know what a Duke is. It has the stamp and someone spent lots of money on it.

It's very nice. More pics please.

 

[Victor Roman]

On 2/8/2025 at 9:50 PM, Victor Roman said:

I noticed that fine rings make for a "sweeter" tone. Wide rings - more open tone, better for larger places. I do not think it is a hard rule.

 

On 2/10/2025 at 11:07 PM, David Burgess said:

Beliefs do have a special way of seeming true, to the believer.

I agree 100%. It is why I said that "I noticed" and not " I believe that....". And, why I do not think it is a hard rule. My experience is quite limited compared with say, yours.

[nathan slobodkin]

On 2/11/2025 at 6:29 PM, Ratcliffiddles said:

There are quite a few one-piece fronts on 18th century English instruments ( many Dukes. Thomas Smith, and others). not so many in Italy at the same time, although plenty before 1700, and interestingly ( to do with grain orientation) there are equally as many pre 1700 Stradivari,  if not more, with the later growth at the treble side rather than the bass. On different Stradivari violins, the later growth from the same log ends up at opposite sides of the belly.  

 

Peter

When you say later growth I assume you mean chronologically and that , once mature , a tree will tend to put on narrower growth rings as it ages. Are you saying Strad used one piece tops with no preference for whether the narrower grain was on one side or the other? 

[Andreas Preuss]

One might wonder why certain makers had a preference for either wide or narrow grained wood. This led sometimes to the wildest theories whereas in reality this had more to do with the local supply for those makers.
 

I’d say split direction is more important. Sometime long ago someone wrote a paper on it and the result was that within 3 degrees there is no significant alteration to the stability (young modulus). If the runout is over 3 degrees the stability goes measurably down.