Tailpiece distance from the end of violin

[Niko Luthieria]

As I was searching, was said that the minor distance it's the better for the harmonics of the violin, but what are yours experience with this? 

Do yours tailpieces touch the ebony(I think) part of the end of the violin?

 

[The Violin Beautiful]

The tailpiece should not be in contact with the saddle. It is true that a tailgut that’s longer than normal can be the source of tonal issues, but making it too short can also be a problem. 

[germain]

Tailpieces need to be adjusted back in forth so that when you pluck a string behind the bridge it matches an octave to the next string. In other words G behind the bridge should be a high octave D etc., D string behind the bridge should be an A. With synthetic strings the octave is not perfect but for optimal sound an proper set up you should have it as close to an octave as possible. 

[Nick Allen]

OP, I think that most luthier overlook this aspect for some reason or another. 

But anyways, I try to shoot for something that's not too close, or not too far. I mostly kind of flex the tailpiece up and down gently, as well as twist it to get a fee for the amount of give at that end. I'll push on the tailpiece near the saddle end to see. 

I've gotten good results with around 2mm of free tailgut for standard nylon and about 1 mm for kevlar. 

You'll have to trim the end of the tailpiece at the saddle end to tune this in order to keep the string after length correct. 

[David Burgess]

15 hours ago, germain said:

Tailpieces need to be adjusted back in forth so that when you pluck a string behind the bridge it matches an octave to the next string. In other words G behind the bridge should be a high octave D etc., D string behind the bridge should be an A.

Well, at least that's what some people believe.

[Deo Lawson]

Given that the pitch of the strings behind the bridge will vary based on humidity, string tension, string thickness, et cetera, et cetera, you'd spend more time disassembling your violin than playing it, trying to keep them all tuned.

 

To solve this issue I have made a tuneable tailpiece in the past with slidable frets under each string. However it didn't make a lick of difference so it was all a waste of time.

[nathan slobodkin]

7 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Well, at least that's what some people believe.

This generality aside, the distance between the TP and the bridge and the TP to the saddle do seem to affect the sound. Do you experiment with this at all? Any conclusions?

[germain]

9 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Well, at least that's what some people believe.

This is what Hans Nebel believes... Learned it from him.  

[Don Noon]

10 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Well, at least that's what some people believe.

1 hour ago, germain said:

This is what Hans Nebel believes... 

With nothing else to go by, following the beliefs of someone with respectable results might be a good starting point.  Then when you find out that others with respectable results believe something else, you have to start questioning.  Like WHY they believe what they believe.

3 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:

This generality aside, the distance between the TP and the bridge and the TP to the saddle do seem to affect the sound. Do you experiment with this at all? Any conclusions?

I have mostly experimented with tailgut free length, where when you get 5mm or so free, then a TP resonance shows up noticably in the playing range.  That's generally not good, but if it's tuned to a wolf note (usually the B1+ resonance), it can counteract the wolf.  However, it also creates odd dynamics, which good players seem to find more objectionable than the wolf.

For TP/bridge (i.e. afterlength), my playing isn't good enough to notice any big differences.  Presumably, to some degree it might act like one of those sliding afterlength-mounted mutes.  I just use an old Thomastik metal fine-tuning TP that has a far longer afterlength than "standard", and it's fine.  I can measure narrow dropouts in the response at the frequency of some of the lower string afterlengths, but I don't find it bothersome.

[Andreas Preuss]

11 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Well, at least that's what some people believe.

Believe aside, it’s useful for musicians to hear if the bridge stands still upright as Giora Schmidt explained in a YouTube. Of course this works only if tailgut is already stretched out. 

[Will Turner]

I am not a master, but my understanding is that the tailgut and tailpiece are adjusted for the string length from the bridge to the tailpiece.

As long as the rest is consistent, I am for 54.6

As long as I am accurate in my measurements and the fittings chosen, I don’t have the tailpiece actually resting on the saddle.

Edgar Russ also has a great video explaining it to you 

 

[David Burgess]

If one is willing to spend an excessive amount of time experimenting and learning, has a good ear, and plays (part of the result is in the way the instrument feels and responds), one will find that there are quite a number of afterlengths which happen to be "sweet spots". Around 54.5 to 55 is one of them, but won't necessarily be the best one for a particular fiddle or a particular tailpiece.

[deans]

1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

If one is willing to spend an excessive amount of time experimenting and learning, has a good ear, and plays (part of the result is in the way the instrument feels and responds), one will find that there are quite a number of afterlengths which happen to be "sweet spots". Around 54.5 to 55 is one of them, but won't necessarily be the best one for a particular fiddle or a particular tailpiece.

I always thought it was relatively easy to test compared to bridge and soundpost adjustments. And definitely cheaper than trying different strings. Different length and weights of tailpieces can often be worth trying too, especially with violas. Not really that expensive.

[nathan slobodkin]

In general I try to use tailpieces on violins which give me a 54-55 mm afterlength with a very short distance between the TP and the saddle. Cellos however seem to have a relatively longer distance from the TP to the saddle when the afterlength is tuned to the octave or anywhere close to it. Not sure what effect that has but longer TPs would add alot of weight while lighter TPs such as the akusticus seem to work very well on a lot of instruments. and usually have a rather long ditance to the saddle. Controlled experiments on this are pretty hard to do and I suspect there are many other things which make more of a difference but I do wonder what other peoples inclinations are.

[Don Noon]

48 minutes ago, nathan slobodkin said:

In general I try to use tailpieces on violins which give me a 54-55 mm afterlength with a very short distance between the TP and the saddle....

but I do wonder what other peoples inclinations are.

My inclinations are the same for the TP/saddle, but I don't really care much about the afterlength.  For violins.

[Niko Luthieria]

 

On 2/5/2025 at 10:52 AM, deans said:

 

I couldn't delete this quote no matter what I do, must be a android problem.

 

But thank you all for the great information, I'm considering all.

 

I recently made a video of adjusting the afterlengh, wanna show you guys.

I would say there are difference but not so much.

[The Violin Beautiful]

A lot of the arguments against adjusting afterlength seem to focus on the onus of taking the setup down multiple times to make the adjustments. There are some little tips and tricks that can help one to get the desired results faster, but it’s just a reality that it takes time and patience to hit the target. I don’t consider it worthless, and I would compare it to fitting bridge feet. Of course we aim for the feet to fit perfectly before the strings are brought up to pitch, but in the event that a gap is visible somewhere once the strings are put on, taking the setup down to fix the problem is onerous but certainly well worth doing. You could say the same about soundpost fit. One could advance the “close enough will be fine” argument for these things, but I don’t think most luthiers would agree with it. Why should we treat afterlength with indifference then?

[Michael Darnton]

@The Violin Beautiful This forum needs a "like" button.