Bow grip: retain or replace?

[Guido]

The bow is nothing special, a Laberte for Mangenot.

The original grip is worn and unsightly, but overall holding up surprisingly well.

If there was no commercial consideration I would certainly keep it as is (I like the look, the patina, and the originality); but the bow will be for sale and I think it will be more attractive to most customers with a nice new grip.

What would be your opinion?

[GeorgeH]

New grip. 

[Brad Dorsey]

The winding appears to be silver wire, which appears to be in good condition.  It can easily by buffed to remove the tarnish and make it shiny.  After buffing, there would still be a little tarnish left deep down between the individual turns, which would leave it with a nice patina.  The one exception would be if the wire were silver-plated copper.  In this case, buffing might remove the silver and expose the copper, which would look unattractive, and I would replace it.

The leather appears to be intact, and it is possibly original, which might be a reason to keep it.  But it does look a little dated.  Replacing the leather would be an option that would spruce up the bow, and a thicker replacement leather might be more comfortable for players.

[Mike_Danielson]

I would use silver polish on the winding-- it will contain a fine abrasive, a soap of some type and probably some ammonia to dissolve the patina/dirt.  The polish should minimize loss of surface if the winding is plated silver.  Polish by hand.

And a new leather grip which is fatter will look nice--you might put the new grip on top of the old one.

[Guido]

Thanks all.

It's tinsel. Held together by grime. Any effort to clean it will turn it into a non-cute fur ball.

Will just do a nice new grip...

[Brad Dorsey]

Yes, I have found it impossible to restore a tinsel wrap that has become ragged or worn.  Attempting to buff the tarnish of the silver is likely destroy the tinsel's metal winding.  All you can do is either leave it as it is or replace it.

Does anyone here know a good source for silver tinsel for bows?  Everywhere I have seen it advertised it seems very expensive, so I have never bought it.  I have some nickel tinsel whose appearance I don't like.

[Guido]

1 hour ago, Brad Dorsey said:

Does anyone here know a good source for silver tinsel for bows?  Everywhere I have seen it advertised it seems very expensive, so I have never bought it.  I have some nickel tinsel whose appearance I don't like.

That is 100% the situation I am in.

I tend to replace tinsel (and whalebone) with a lighter gauge silver (0.22) to reduce impact of the bow's balance.

[Chamberlain]

Another vote for new wrap and grip unless maybe it’s for a collector who wants to see the original. Tinsel and silk combo wraps can look very nice if you are trying to keep the weight less like the current tinsel.  What is the weight and balance?  LAHBows is where I have gotten mine. I’m sure there’s cheaper somewhere but you don’t have to worry about the quality. 

[fiddlecollector]

I would keep it as it is, cleaning the tinsel gently with acetone on cotton ear buds(not sure what they are called in USA). But dont rub the tinsel ,just roll the end of the cotton bud over it (like restorers do when cleaning oil paintings) ,frequently using clean ones and fresh acetone. Its surprising how clean the tinsel can come up and how much dirt/grime comes off. The leather is original .

On a side note , the original tinsels were plated more often than not . I used to have a good source for original early 20th stuff on big bobbins which i found was ideal, but the shop appears to have disappeared. There is a well known shop in the USA (tinsel trading company) that has a bewildering amount of these old tinsels but they are expensive and sell by the yard. I think they were originally in New York but relocated to California i think.

[Brad Dorsey]

6 hours ago, Guido said:

…I tend to replace tinsel (and whalebone) with a lighter gauge silver (0.22) to reduce impact of the bow's balance.

Me, too.

[fiddlecollector]

I found this interesting to mess about with though couldnt find one which works easily with an option for silver  or sterling .

The weights are for copper to convert to silver(i assume pure silver you have to multiply by 1.1719

Which gives weights of 3.5157 gms for 0.22 diameter wire and  4.6876 gms for 0.3mm diameter wire  over a length of 7.5cm  on an estimated 8.0mm diameter bow handle.

340 turns for the 0.22 versus 250 for the 0.3mm

6.519 metres of wire needed for 0.3mm wire and 8.804 for the 0.22mm wire

 

[Brad Dorsey]

This is an interesting chart, but I suspect that it contains too much information to be convenient for bow winding weights.  Also, there is the copper-to-silver weight conversion required and accounting for the weight of the leather.

For the last year or two, I have recorded the weights of all the silver wire bow grips that I have installed.  From these data, I have compiled a bow grip weight chart that is much easier to use than the chart above.  I have posted my chart in a separate thread, so that it won't get lost in this one.

[fiddlecollector]

Yes i just found it an interesting calculator  to illustrate the difference in weights for two wire gauges.

https://production-solution.com/coil-calculator.htm

[The Violin Beautiful]

Once the silver or silver plating of the wire portion of the tinsel is gone, there’s nothing you can do to make it look like new again. If the bow has any value, it’s well worth it to replace with new silver tinsel. A collector might like all the original parts, but even for many collectors, a winding this worn isn’t worth preserving if it can be replaced. A grimy and discolored winding detracts from the appearance of the bow. Tinsel is unfortunately a material that simply doesn’t last forever, so to maintain the original appearance of the bow you have to replace it when it wears out.

It’s similar to the fittings on a violin—they add something to the appearance and it’s a mildly interesting side note to be able to say that they are original, but the value is in the principal parts of the instrument/bow, not the adornments. Sometimes those who are hoping to make a sale get a little carried away with the idea that adding expensive fittings will make the instrument more expensive, but its appraisal value will not include the fittings. Original parts, while perhaps nice to have for the sake of provenance, are only so good as their functionality—if they’re worn out, replacing them becomes necessary if you intend to use the instrument or bow.

 

 

[Guido]

9 hours ago, Brad Dorsey said:

For the last year or two,I have recorded the weights of all the silver wire bow grips that I have installed.  From these data, I have compiled a bow grip weight chart that is much easier to use than the chart above.  I will post my chart in a separate thread, so that it won't get lost in this one.

Me, too. Sort of. I did not note handle diameter or slight variations in winding length, nor did I graph it.

But w/o leather I average about 1g for tinsel, 1.5 for whalebone, 3.4g for 0.22 silver and 4.2g for 0.25 silver.

The greatest variation is probably in tinsel of different types.

Leathers average around 1g but I might add that I'm not a fan of thick or large leathers. A small French style leather (18-20mm) can be as little as 0.4-0.5g.