First time amateur violin build in progress

[Brian in Texas]

Gotcha. I think I’ll opt for the slower knife and chisel method. On this first build, often times when I reach for my saw to speed things up, I end up regretting it very soon after. I guess I need to order a fingerboard and a bridge blank next to do this part.

[PawelP]

23 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

Hi Brian, I'm always happy when my videos can help someone passionate about this work. And don't worry too much about not having attended a violin-making school. School teachings alone don't take you very far, self-learning is the basis of our work.

Davide, you need to face the reality. Likely most of amateur builders today are your "students". I even did a printout of your video descriptions to use as a handbook in next builds (or if someone switches off youtube).

Thanks again for a great work! 

Pawel

[Davide Sora]

2 hours ago, PawelP said:

Davide, you need to face the reality. Likely most of amateur builders today are your "students". I even did a printout of your video descriptions to use as a handbook in next builds (or if someone switches off youtube).

Thanks again for a great work! 

Pawel

Wow! Well done! However, I always want to emphasize that in my videos I show my working method and my approach to violin making. Sure, I think it's the best way, but maybe others think differently. I hope that those who want to learn will try to think with their own heads and avoid an overly dogmatic attitude.

[Brian in Texas]

So...I'm already thinking ahead for my buddy's viola build. I found the Stradivari forms that Addie made available. On the viola form, I have a couple of practical questions.

1. There is asymmetry between the two halves of the mold (see the screenshot with the red and blue overlay). Am I correct in assuming that this is due to wood movement in Old Tony's mold over the years, and that the original mold likely would've been perfectly symmetrical? I have a hard time imagining that he was even a little bit sloppy about anything whatsoever. If that's the case, it would make sense to just take one side, mirror it in Illustrator, and make the mold accordingly, yes?
2. Another small detail I'm curious about is the corner blocks. On some forms, they're cut at right angles. But on the Strad form, they're sloped. Is there a practical reason for why he did it this way? It seems to me that it would be easier to cut the blocks at right angles.
3. Does anyone know if this viola form has an arching, scroll, graduation, and f-hole template somewhere?

[Shunyata]

Sloped corner blocks are closer to the shape you want in the finished garland and it is easier to remove the mold when they are sloped.

Yes it is a nusiance to cut them.

Give some careful thought to the clamp hole placement/size to simplify clamping the blocks into a sloped mold.

[Davide Sora]

3 hours ago, Brian in Texas said:

So...I'm already thinking ahead for my buddy's viola build. I found the Stradivari forms that Addie made available. On the viola form, I have a couple of practical questions.

1. There is asymmetry between the two halves of the mold (see the screenshot with the red and blue overlay). Am I correct in assuming that this is due to wood movement in Old Tony's mold over the years, and that the original mold likely would've been perfectly symmetrical? I have a hard time imagining that he was even a little bit sloppy about anything whatsoever. If that's the case, it would make sense to just take one side, mirror it in Illustrator, and make the mold accordingly, yes?
2. Another small detail I'm curious about is the corner blocks. On some forms, they're cut at right angles. But on the Strad form, they're sloped. Is there a practical reason for why he did it this way? It seems to me that it would be easier to cut the blocks at right angles.
3. Does anyone know if this viola form has an arching, scroll, graduation, and f-hole template somewhere?

 

 

I would judge the Mahler viola form as quite symmetrical, the small asymmetries are in my opinion attributable to the manual work in making the form (Stradivari was precise but not according to today's standards) and to wear due to the working processes, such as the lower part of the C which does not correspond to the horizontal lines of the corner blocks. As far as I know, there are no arching profiles available, but they are quite low with the top at 16.3mm and the back at 16.7mm. There are no thickness maps either, but it's made of poplar, and the top doesn't even look like spruce, so if you were to use maple and spruce they would be useless anyway.

Antoine Tamestit plays the Mahler viola, you can try to catch a glimpse of the arching by watching his videos.

 

[Brian in Texas]

Thank you again, Davide. I'd been eyeing the Mahler viola but hadn't seen that particular video before. I'm not necessarily dead set on a Strad viola pattern, for that matter. If I can find something else that works in a complete set of plans, I'll be inclined to go with that.

That said, I did see the write-up for the Stradivari Gibson viola on Roger Hargrave's site and while it's not a fully complete set of plans, it would still be a decent starting off point. I'm not aiming to make a 100% faithful bench copy. For that matter, my friend doesn't want an antique Italian looking varnish, he prefers a more French looking pristine deep red color.

I'm toying with the idea of poplar instead of maple, too. He's a more casual player and will be just be playing by himself and not in an ensemble, although I may join him on cello from time to time. So the viola won't necessarily need the brightness of maple to project and fill up a concert hall.

Ah! So much to plan ahead and be excited for!

[Alireza kazemi]

On ۱۴۰۳/۱۱/۱۸ at 13:29, Davide Sora said:

سلام برایان، من همیشه خوشحالم که ویدیوهای من می تواند به کسی که علاقه زیادی به این کار دارد کمک کند. و زیاد نگران نرفتن به آموزشگاه ویولن سازی نباشید. آموزش های مدرسه به تنهایی شما را خیلی دور نمی برد، خودآموزی اساس کار ما است.

Hello Mr. David Sora, I have been using the shape and form of your bass bars in making my violins for some time now. I must admit that my violins, which have been shaped like your bass bars, have gained much more strength, volume, richness, and warmth... I am fascinated and interested in your method and precision. May you be happy and healthy.

[Alireza kazemi]

11 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

عجب! آفرین! با این حال، همیشه می خواهم تأکید کنم که در ویدیوهایم روش کار و رویکردم به ساخت ویولن را نشان می دهم. مطمئناً، من فکر می کنم این بهترین راه است ، اما شاید دیگران متفاوت فکر کنند. امیدوارم کسانی که می خواهند یاد بگیرند سعی کنند با سر خود فکر کنند و از نگرش بیش از حد جزم اندیشانه اجتناب کنند.

I am not flattering at all, but I must say that Mr. David Sora is an outstanding and talented violin maker who makes violins with great care, knowledge, and experience. I have learned and will learn very valuable and instructive lessons from his videos... He shares his methods and learnings in the form of videos for all violin makers around the world, and we, as violin makers, should be grateful for his efforts and experiences.

[Davide Sora]

4 hours ago, Brian in Texas said:

Thank you again, Davide. I'd been eyeing the Mahler viola but hadn't seen that particular video before. I'm not necessarily dead set on a Strad viola pattern, for that matter. If I can find something else that works in a complete set of plans, I'll be inclined to go with that.

That said, I did see the write-up for the Stradivari Gibson viola on Roger Hargrave's site and while it's not a fully complete set of plans, it would still be a decent starting off point. I'm not aiming to make a 100% faithful bench copy. For that matter, my friend doesn't want an antique Italian looking varnish, he prefers a more French looking pristine deep red color.

I'm toying with the idea of poplar instead of maple, too. He's a more casual player and will be just be playing by himself and not in an ensemble, although I may join him on cello from time to time. So the viola won't necessarily need the brightness of maple to project and fill up a concert hall.

Ah! So much to plan ahead and be excited for!

The Mahler form is different from the Gibson, which is much narrower. For the Gibson you should look for the CV form in Addie's drawings. This form has been modified by shortening it (by Stradivari sons?) and fits well in the dimensions of the Gibson. The CV form was that of all Stradivari Contralto Violas (except the Mahler) which are earlier and slightly longer than the Gibson.

You can see the last posts by me and Francois Denis about it on this topic:

 

[Brian in Texas]

See, this is why I’m so glad to have the ear of a real maestro to say what’s what! Ultimately I need a good form for a 16 inch (40.5 cm) viola, and I wasn’t intending to go narrow.

[Davide Sora]

10 hours ago, Brian in Texas said:

See, this is why I’m so glad to have the ear of a real maestro to say what’s what! Ultimately I need a good form for a 16 inch (40.5 cm) viola, and I wasn’t intending to go narrow.

There are no Cremonese violas of that size that I know of, they are all over 41 mm. The only one that comes close is the Gibson which is 408 mm (probably 410 mm or something more if measured on the centerline). Other makers have made smaller violas (Brescian, Venetian, Guadagnini, etc.), but I can't point you to one in particular for which you can find all the measurements and details, you'll have to search among the Strad posters to see if you can find something available.

I use a 415mm Andrea Guarneri model that I redesigned from the Conte Vitale Viola, but The Strad poster is no longer available. Luis Manfio, who specializes in violas, uses the same model and has shortened it, I don't remember how much. You can find that information by searching his posts here on Maestronet. There is a system to draw the Andrea Guarneri form on Francois Denis' book "Traitee de Lutherie", I think it is possible to draw it with this system by modifying the measurements to get to 405 mm if you wish (the original is 420 mm on the centerline).

[Davide Sora]

12 hours ago, alireza kszemi said:

Hello Mr. David Sora, I have been using the shape and form of your bass bars in making my violins for some time now. I must admit that my violins, which have been shaped like your bass bars, have gained much more strength, volume, richness, and warmth... I am fascinated and interested in your method and precision. May you be happy and healthy.

I'm glad your violin sound is improved. I don't think the shape of my bass bar alone deserves credit, but at least it didn't cause any problems.

[Jim Bress]

12 hours ago, Brian in Texas said:

See, this is why I’m so glad to have the ear of a real maestro to say what’s what! Ultimately I need a good form for a 16 inch (40.5 cm) viola, and I wasn’t intending to go narrow.

Another option that is close. Of course if making your own mould you can reduce the LOB to 40.5 cm if this size is critical for the player. 
 

https://edizioni.scrollavezza-zanre.com/en/girolamo-amati-viola-volume

[Brian in Texas]

Jim, thanks for that link!

I’m really increasingly enamored with the Mahler Strad, though. I think what I’ll do is use a hi-res photo of the front to extrapolate my own mold for it.

If I trace the purfling, that ought to give me a good outline. But accounting for the edge overhang and the thickness of the ribs, should I be following the outermost edge of the purfling, perhaps? Or maybe the center of it?

Maybe the 41.2 cm length won’t be too much of a problem. It’s not as drastic of a difference in size as violas can be prone to.

[Davide Sora]

10 minutes ago, Brian in Texas said:

Jim, thanks for that link!

I’m really increasingly enamored with the Mahler Strad, though. I think what I’ll do is use a hi-res photo of the front to extrapolate my own mold for it.

If I trace the purfling, that ought to give me a good outline. But accounting for the edge overhang and the thickness of the ribs, should I be following the outermost edge of the purfling, perhaps? Or maybe the center of it?

Maybe the 41.5 cm length won’t be too much of a problem. It’s not as drastic of a difference in size as violas can be prone to.

The Mahler viola is 41.1 cm, so not much more than 40.5. Also, it is quite wide, so I guess it can handle the reduction of the entire outline well (a long time ago it was done with the photocopier). To get the form outline usually the outside of the purfling is considered (the purfling is roughly in correspondence with the linings), I would suggest you compare the widths of the form with those of the purfling to have a clue on which is the best line to follow.

I could see it in my hands just a few months ago, undoubtedly a nice viola.

[Brian in Texas]

1 hour ago, Davide Sora said:

I could see it in my hands just a few months ago, undoubtedly a nice viola.

Lucky you! What would you estimate is the overhang distance along the edges? That could be helpful to know, also.

[Will Turner]

This thread is excellent!  I also want to thank you Davide!  Your information both here and in your videos has been very informative and inspiring.

[Davide Sora]

42 minutes ago, Brian in Texas said:

Lucky you! What would you estimate is the overhang distance along the edges? That could be helpful to know, also.

I didn't have time to take measurements, but the edge overhang was nothing special, I would estimate the usual around 2.5/3 mm. But this measurement is not a good reference, the edges are worn and are not too uniform in overhang (another aspect often overestimated as the accuracy of Stradivari's work and of ancient luthiers in general). The original form measures and the outline of the purfling (which is not touched by the wear) are more reliable.

[David Burgess]

On 2/7/2025 at 2:22 PM, Brian in Texas said:

Thank you again, Davide. I'd been eyeing the Mahler viola but hadn't seen that particular video before. I'm not necessarily dead set on a Strad viola pattern, for that matter. If I can find something else that works in a complete set of plans, I'll be inclined to go with that.

While some of the most highly regarded "playing" instruments are Strad violins, his violas and cellos are a bit of a different deal.

[Brian in Texas]

5 hours ago, David Burgess said:

While some of the most highly regarded "playing" instruments are Strad violins, his violas and cellos are a bit of a different deal.

True, but the Mahler viola is apparently something of a standout. I am planning to emulate the original in another aspect, by using poplar for the ribs and back. Gimme that rich, creamy low end.

[Alireza kazemi]

On ۱۴۰۳/۱۱/۲۰ at 14:45, Davide Sora said:

خوشحالم که صدای ویولن شما بهتر شده است. به نظر من شکل بیس من به تنهایی شایسته اعتبار نیست، اما حداقل مشکلی ایجاد نکرد.

I believe your bass bar shape is completely scientific and principled because its results have improved the sound quality of my violins.

[Brian in Texas]

My fingerboard should arrive today, so I can glue the front of the violin to the rib garland and begin setting the neck. After that comes the single most contentious subject there is...varnishing.

At the shop I worked at previously (circa 2000-2001), we didn't use albumin at any stage. We used seedlac dissolved in alcohol, then filtered, as a golden ground coat. Any colored oil pigments and varnish went on top of that, naturally. For the sake of ease, I'm going to be using the same process for my ground coat, and I currently have some seedlac dissolving in a jar.

My real question is about the use of albumin.

I've seen how to whip it up and drain the fluid from the egg whites, that part seems straight forward. The question is regarding the insanely subjective, dread black magic of acoustics. I'm leery of shellacking the inside of the instrument, I feel that would seal up the pores a bit too much, perhaps? But applying albumin in the interior of the corpus seems to make perfect sense. Does anyone use albumin on the exterior of the corpus and ALSO apply a shellac ground over that? They both act to stiffen the wood somewhat, so would doing both albumin and shellac on the exterior be acoustically redundant, or doubly beneficial?

EDIT: Folks on the Reddit violinmaking forum are suggesting that I forgo albumin and shellac in favor of an oil based ground. Who has experience with that, and do you recommend any that are commercially available?

[amateur.geigenbau]

On 2/7/2025 at 10:18 AM, PawelP said:

Davide, you need to face the reality. Likely most of amateur builders today are your "students". I even did a printout of your video descriptions to use as a handbook in next builds (or if someone switches off youtube).

Thanks again for a great work! 

Pawel

Can you please upload this document or give it to me via PM? It would be very nice.

[MikeC]

I don't have an opinion on putting something on the inside.

I can't answer about egg albumin since I have never used it, but I have used shellac.  

A few years ago I stripped and re-finished a kit fiddle that I put together in 1985.   Reading through threads here on MN at the time I came across some info on using shellac as a ground so I used that.   Amber shellac diluted about 1 part shellac to 4 or 5 parts alcohol and apply multiple coats until it just starts to form a surface layer.  And then oil varnish on top of that. 

I'll say that the amber shellac has a nice looking yellow color for a ground.  

 Everyone might frown at me when I tell you what I did on my last build, the one I finished right before I started videoing the current one.   For the ground I used uncolored oil varnish.   I think it looks good and I don't think it harmed the tone, as you might think that it would with something like that soaking into the wood fibers.   

But then I don't know what a high end good violin sounds like in person so...    

If you want to see pictures, it's in my build thread.  I did a little light antiquing wearing away some of the colored varnish so the ground shows through.   I did do something to color the wood before the ground varnish as well.