Back pain/tension when playing

[hooman23]

Hello everyone,

I am a self taught violinist, so I don’t have a teacher to ask this question to. When I am playing the violin, my back often hurts. I find that this is because if I am relaxed, my head is looking downwards, and in order to look at my music, I have to move my head up and consequently my chest/back up as well, leading to a very uncomfortable experience playing. 
 

Ive attached a photo of the placement of my violin before I put my head on it—I wonder if it’s because I need to make my shoulder rest higher? But I’ve read on this forum that I shouldn’t do that.

[Zeissica]

IMO this is one of those things where a teacher is really important. Are you able to seek one out in your local area? And, it is key to do this in person rather than virtual/online. 

[Victor Roman]

20 hours ago, hooman23 said:

Hello everyone,

I am a self taught violinist, so I don’t have a teacher to ask this question to. When I am playing the violin, my back often hurts. I find that this is because if I am relaxed, my head is looking downwards, and in order to look at my music, I have to move my head up and consequently my chest/back up as well, leading to a very uncomfortable experience playing. 
 

Ive attached a photo of the placement of my violin before I put my head on it—I wonder if it’s because I need to make my shoulder rest higher? But I’ve read on this forum that I shouldn’t do that.

 

Playing the violin is inherently uncomfortable. It takes time to fully adjust - years if you started as an adult. If you have a long neck you might want a taller chinrest and a taller shoulder rest. The chinrest must have such shape to allow you to "hook" the violin with the tip of your chin. Place the score such so you do not need to move your head - get a stand you can adjust. Do not look at the violin while playing, hold it 45 degrees to chest - a clip with you playing will help.

[hooman23]

8 hours ago, Zeissica said:

IMO this is one of those things where a teacher is really important. Are you able to seek one out in your local area? And, it is key to do this in person rather than virtual/online. 

I might be getting a violin teacher sometime in February, but it’s not a definite conclusion by any means. I do need to practice everyday (I’m in a school orchestra) and this is starting to become an issue.

[hooman23]

3 hours ago, Victor Roman said:

Playing the violin is inherently uncomfortable. It takes time to fully adjust - years if you started as an adult. If you have a long neck you might want a taller chinrest and a taller shoulder rest. The chinrest must have such shape to allow you to "hook" the violin with the tip of your chin. Place the score such so you do not need to move your head - get a stand you can adjust. Do not look at the violin while playing, hold it 45 degrees to chest - a clip with you playing will help.

I’ve relatively young (in high school) and I’ve played the violin for one or two years. I think my chin rest is fine because I can “hook” the violin with my chin. Rotating the violin a bit more downwards to 45 degrees has helped a bit—I was holding it tilted more to my shoulder before.

 

Something that I’ve noticed is that usually I’m lifting the violin up with my shoulders when I’m playing instead of raising my back/chest like I said in the original post. This is still uncomfortable though. I think my discomfort primarily stems from stretching my neck? If I put the full weight of my head on the violin, it feels like my neck is being strained. I’ve just tried holding the violin closer to me, and it’s significantly better. My shoulders are relaxed and I can hold the violin at a semi normal height now, but after practicing for around 30m my neck still feels tired and stretched.

[Spelman]

Wow, dude, you should really stop and get a teacher. Anyone as young as yourself who's having neck/back/shoulder problems due to poor violin positioning is really going to jack themselves up if you continue to pursue the instrument.

Looking at your picture and reading what you wrote, I see a lot of things that worry me. I'll repeat, you should *really* go see a teacher and get some proper (read, painless) technique. The violin should *not* be uncomfortable and fatiguing to play, with all respect to others ITT.

The positioning of your violin should not compromise your spine! When you are playing you should have a straight neck/back, straight and level shoulders, and no bending forward or backward or sideways. I tell my students their posture shouldn't look any different from when they are not playing.

That is wonderful you like the violin so much! Let's make sure it loves you back and you have a wonderful lifetime of (painless!) playing.

[GoPractice]

On 12/20/2024 at 2:13 PM, Victor Roman said:

Playing the violin is inherently uncomfortable.  ( ... )

This can be true for so many. Adding to that insult...

The older one gets, it becomes an issue, even for profoundly capable professionals. And there is joint pain and ....

At one level, one must stay fit, requiring some physical endurance and better understanding of breathing as playing well and physical intent can be very physical. We discuss not over squeezing and pressing and all those modern do nots that better equipment and techniques allow.

Flexibility and strength are equal in measure for some. Violin is one thing, viola another. And core/ mid body strength is another. Which requires a topical thread, eventually.

Yoga, which I do not participate, appears to be important for the process of so many players for Menuhin to Kashkashian.

Posture is also essential. Not implying anyone's posture is bad, except that when reading off a very low stand, leaning forward for more than 20min is silly. I had to fight to raise my stand 4 inches with one organization.

Not for the youth so much but on the westcoast, Alexander Technique of better loading/ balancing of work over the length of the spine ( if I am to sort of understand the ideas ) helps in better comfort. I also do not participate in this school, though I have read a book or two.

Flexibility and balance make it possible to develop better overall technique. However one gets there is their own journey. The hope also is that we better live our lives this way.

[GoPractice]

  

On 12/19/2024 at 5:47 PM, hooman23 said:

Hello everyone,

I am a self taught violinist ( ... )

Which is brilliant.

There are so many barriers when one is on an individual path... One of the many limitations ( not to be discouraging ) is that the efforts might make trying worse.

Having a great dealer or an expert teacher would be helpful. That has been said.

Not trying to diagnose and remedy any aspect of your playing. But as to comfort, there is a large range where violin angle relative to one's shoulders, perhaps 45 degrees is a good starting point. When I started playing, I was so little that the instrument was pointed straight in front of me. A now, when playing viola in the extreme upper positions the instrument feels as if I am aiming a bow and arrow for access near the end of the fingerboard. And usually, I am only there for 16 bars/ measures.

Establish that starting point.

I try to perform with the instrument fairly parallel to the floor. During soloing some had me parallel to the strings ( angled up ) to load the strings with arm weight. But for some, this appears boastful. In some ensembles I do play with a lower stand, where no one wrote a Wagner Opera for chamber ensembles - that if the program is too long I develop back pains. I used to lie on my back and sides for every break when a large beautiful sounding viola was loaned to me. Even if I had memorized the score, the drooped, intense, scholarly position would have been necessary ( at the time. )

The height of the scroll matters.

For a shoulder rest to work better, the weight of the head can be loaded on to the jaw/ chinrest. In architecture, there is a structure called the " cantilever " where a length ( the instrument ) can be balanced by the offset mass of the head. This suggestion or analysis is oversimplified, but hopefully for one self- taught, the idea is offered.

The heights of our shoulders might matter. We contort quite a bit to play the violin well. And sure, not the violin's fault when we do not play so well. To stay somewhat balanced, in general, the shoulder rest for someone like yourself needs to be taller. There are taller chinrests of course, but not all cases accommodate them. And for a smaller percentage, the taller chinrest might offer better control and playability. Perhaps a longer leg on the Kun.

The time/ exposure to playing/ difficult passages. The complexity of many things occurring at once and the singular focus to play a set of notes is not easy to quantify. A more experienced teacher can assist with technique but the process may not lead to relief. In essence we are all self- taught. Until an observation is made, that data point might help. There is your pain.

The ( Maestro ) Kun shoulder rest is a robust standard of the industry. If you do not have taller leg for the rest, get a hand towel and drape it over the part that contacts the body. See if you can not add some height, a few mm at a time.

Play standing, load more of the weight on the left leg, play. Load the weight on the right leg, play. With the knees unlocked, and with better posture, play/ practice with the instrument close to parallel to the ground. At 45 degrees off the shoulders or the chest. Start with 5min and work up to 10.

This is to determine fit. Then the technique. 

Discomfort is relative of course. And this discussion is forever important. In some arts/ disciplines, there are sacrifices that are made. This time of year, please think of our ballet professionals who make it look easy.  

[Spelman]

18 minutes ago, GoPractice said:

  We contort quite a bit to play the violin well.

What?

No.

@hooman23, get a teacher. You're going to hurt yourself. You should never be in pain after playing. If you are, you're doing it wrong.

[GoPractice]

On 12/21/2024 at 4:52 PM, Spelman said:

Wow, dude, you should really stop and get a teacher. Anyone as young as yourself who's having neck/back/shoulder problems due to poor violin positioning is really going to jack themselves up if you continue to pursue the instrument.

Looking at your picture and reading what you wrote, I see a lot of things that worry me.   ( ... )

2 hours ago, Spelman said:

What?

No.

@hooman23, get a teacher. You're going to hurt yourself. You should never be in pain after playing. If you are, you're doing it wrong.

Did we ask size, duration of practice? the work? Does not matter due to pain. Sure, yes.

Sizing a shoulder rest requires a shop? expert teacher? Yes, maybe if there is pain?

On 12/20/2024 at 5:32 PM, hooman23 said:

I might be getting a violin teacher sometime in February, but it’s not a definite conclusion by any means. I do need to practice everyday (I’m in a school orchestra) and this is starting to become an issue.

You put up the funds for the lessons, if that is geographically possible. At least until February?

I will match it via an arbiter, perhaps the school.

If it is on the subject of pain, start a new post about not playing with pain. I understand that the subjectivity of fit is complicated with possible consequences. It can be a dynamic process.

Generally, never should you play with pain. I believe that, but the reality is far more complex. For those of us who have developed physical difficulties in playing, as a result of something. All players should develop ways or methods to reduce any difficulties in our paths. Some of us play for a living, some for grades. Some joints give out. Some works are unplayable at the tempos that the teacher/ master. Some difficulties, take time to evaluate over time...

What other information do we need? How tall? what are the pieces? Mozart? Berlioz? Balmages? Newbold? Composite bow?

For some, these might be invasive questions. 

Yes, the poster should locate a better teacher. What in the interim? Funds? Time? Location? Ask and we shall provide?

What concerns you? That the player is left- handed? ( joke )

This is not a battle. What you are saying is mostly correct. There are plenty of players and schools without resources of funds, time, and timing. I work for well funded institutions that do not have time. There are far more complex issues. So how do we correct this?

During this holiday, while the world falls apart, somethings might be tried. Somethings might be explained. I am pragmatic in coaching as there should only be building - and I work with multiple coaches as we all want better outcomes. And yes, I am not a physician. And that is eye of the needle we thread. BTW, there are many teachers that have the shop complete fit issues. One of the shops I worked at allowed me to complete fits without costs to customers, meaning that I spent several hours trying a variety of rests at no cost. The hours invested were generally advantageous for the shop as it brought it more clients. For those who continued purchased online, his mood was the same replying that it did not matter. I assuming he will retire soon. 

Without forthcoming information, sure, some teachers/ shops are the best. in lieu?

The winter concert season is over except for some Nutcracker holdovers. So does not have to practice/ perform until school starts? rest until then? Taking out tension and developing strengths are posts on their own. There are better examples of these lessons on utube. Perhaps suggestions as to the most comfortable playing videos are in order.

There are instruments that are uncomfortable to play. Flute is tough. Bassoon heavy. Piano destroys hands big and small.

[Altgeiger]

4 hours ago, Spelman said:

get a teacher. You're going to hurt yourself.

This is the simple, correct answer.

[Randall The Restorer]

***I respond as a string musician and health care professional living with a spinal cord injury (C5-6 cord contusion) ***

STOP playing the violin immediately!

The modern violin playing technique puts pressure on the blood vessels in the neck and pressure on the cervical spinal cord and spinal nerves that supply the back, the arms, head, etc.

Get assessed by a medical doctor, a physical therapist, or possibly a chiropractor. This is even more imprtant if you have ever played a contact sport, or been in a collision involving a bicycle or automobile. An X-Ray, CT Scan or MRI may be appropriate.

If you are medically cleared to play the violin at the shoulder you can resume BUT only under the guidance of a teacher. That teacher may recommend certain types of shoulder rests and neck rests to rduce neck injury.

In the meantime, try playing your violin on your leg like a cello or sticking out in front of your lower thorax. These positions were common before the invention of the shoulder position.

Yours truly,

Randy O'Malley

[hooman23]

Hello,

Small update here. I think that I’ve completely resolved the issue. It appears that this was due to two reasons:

 

1. How far up I’m holding the violin

2. How far away I’m holding the violin

 

Turning the violin to around 45 degrees (as Victor Roman said), and bringing the violin closer (I think I was too “afraid” to have the violin touch my neck previously) has made it significantly more comfortable. This is much better, and I feel relaxed and honestly very pain-free in this position. My head is facing pretty much forward, and it’s at a 90 degree angle relative to the floor. It will take some getting used to though.

 

Thank you everyone sincerely for taking the time to help me with my issue.

[Randall The Restorer]

6 hours ago, hooman23 said:

Hello,

Small update here. I think that I’ve completely resolved the issue. It appears that this was due to two reasons:

 

1. How far up I’m holding the violin

2. How far away I’m holding the violin

 

Turning the violin to around 45 degrees (as Victor Roman said), and bringing the violin closer (I think I was too “afraid” to have the violin touch my neck previously) has made it significantly more comfortable. This is much better, and I feel relaxed and honestly very pain-free in this position. My head is facing pretty much forward, and it’s at a 90 degree angle relative to the floor. It will take some getting used to though.

 

Thank you everyone sincerely for taking the time to help me with my issue.

You are most welcome.

You still need the guidance of a professional teacher, or physical therapist. Even one hour watching good online video instruction is better than 100 hours spent asking questions on this forum. "A picture is worth a thousand words". 

And always gently stretch and warm the neck muscles with hot towels or hot water before any physical exercise.

Yours truly,

Randy

[GoPractice]

High five, Victor Roman!