The Hierarchy Of Violins

[Joefiddle]

Hierarchy of Violins

 

First class;

Amati

Guarneri

Stradivari

Superstar Violinist level

Violins generally in the $1,000,000. range.

 

Second class;

French

German

English

American

Artist level makers from abroad

Most utilized by professional orchestra and soloist players.

Violins generally in the $10,000. and up range.

 

Third class;

Violins from anywhere $200 and up range.

Good playable, conservatory and advanced student models.

 

VSO;

Violin Shaped Objects

Wholesale starting at $29.

To teach someone what a violin is.

Generally unplayable.

[David Stiles]

There may be a few more tiers than that.   

$10,000 to $1,000,000 is a big range.  Where would a Guadagnini or say a Ruggeri be placed.  Or a burgess, or a Sora?

[Wood Butcher]

Indeed, seems to have omitted Walter Mayson and Salustri too

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Love to find a decent Strad these days for $1 mil.   

May I ask the reason for this list?

[JacksonMaberry]

Not a very useful exercise, given that some Strads absolutely suck and some lesser known makers have stunning fiddles out there. An instrument should be judged on its merits by the player. I understand how delicious an idea it is to believe there is an easy way of classifying instrument quality and value, but if it were possible better minds would already have managed it. 

[Altgeiger]

Tier 5:

- violas

[FiddleDoug]

Seems like a pretty jumbled, meaningless list. Where do you put other Italian violins?

 

[Violadamore]

3 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

Indeed, seems to have omitted Walter Mayson and Salustri too

Mayson would be covered as "English".  Salustri, of course, would be at the top of the Second Class, if "Italian" had not been omitted.   

[Televet]

I can't remember where, but @martin swan once said, only partly tongue in cheek, that the hierarchy of violins was classified according to the degrees of separation from Stradivari  and also to the number of syllables in the makers name

[Andreas Preuss]

Authentic instruments from the workshops of Antonio Stradivari and Guiseppe Guarneri del Gesu already belong to the category ‘out of reach for private purchase’. You need a sponsor. 
 

Then comes a group of affordable instruments for superstars and there is probably Giovanni Battista Guadagnini at the top, followed by other makers from Cremona like Niccolò Amati, Guiseppe Guarneri Filius Andreae, and then members of the Gagliano family, Giovanni Francesco Pressenda, makers from Venice, Nicolas Lupot, Daniel Parker and others. 
 

There are a few superstars out there who don’t necessarily play an instrument of what people think is a superstar category instrument. 
 

 

[Ron1]

 Other than the wildly ranging prices, the only constant basis of measurement or comparison for these categories is player (or non-player/playable).

Otherwise one category is by maker; one is by Country of origin; one is by price range only; and one is visual.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

On 12/15/2024 at 2:37 PM, Joefiddle said:

Hierarchy of Violins

 

First class;

Amati

Guarneri

Stradivari

Superstar Violinist level

Violins generally in the $1,000,000. range.

 

Second class;

French

German

English

American

Artist level makers from abroad

Most utilized by professional orchestra and soloist players.

Violins generally in the $10,000. and up range.

 

Third class;

Violins from anywhere $200 and up range.

Good playable, conservatory and advanced student models.

 

VSO;

Violin Shaped Objects

Wholesale starting at $29.

To teach someone what a violin is.

Generally unplayable.

Mine aren't even shaped like violins so there should be another class lower than VSO.

[Joefiddle]

Thanks far the wonderful responses. I will upgrade my Violin Hierarchy list accordingly.
How about another subject?  Fabulous Faux Flame

Are they real, enhanced or superimposed?  Is it real or just a fantasy.

I am always fascinated with the way sunlight reflects on an instrument.

The colors can explode!   

Especially the way the suns light travels through Venetian blinds on to an instruments back.

 

[Joefiddle]

Todays project.

[Joefiddle]

Oh, my present upgraded violin hierarchy list.

Hierarchy of Violins

 

Royal Status;

Amati

Guarneri

Stradivari

Superstar Violinist level

Violins generally in the $1,000,000.s range.

 

First class;

Artist level makers from abroad

French

German

English

American

etc.

Most utilized by professional orchestra and soloist players.

Violins generally in the $10,000. and up range.

 

Second class;

Violins from anywhere $200 and up range.

Good playable, conservatory and advanced student models.

 

Steerage;

VSO or

Violin Shaped Objects

Wholesale starting at $29.

To teach someone what a violin is.

Generally unplayable.

 

Lastly, Uncategoryable

[FiddleDoug]

The light coming through the blinds has nothing to do with the flames. Roll up the blinds! Why do you call if faux flames?

I looks like OK flaming, but nothing exceptional.

[The Violin Beautiful]

This reminds me of grade school test questions like “Name the Five Causes of World War II.” While I can understand the desire to provide simple and straightforward answers, that kind of rote approach requires one to take an unrealistically narrow view of a very complicated subject.

Putting violins into a hierarchy requires a number of assumptions, as there are many ways to look at it. Do you simply use purchase price to determine the levels? Do you take into account the historical significance of the maker? Do you rank based on player responses? Does the endorsement of famous players affect it? Does the hierarchy only serve to distinguish based on perfect examples (e.g. the price of a pristine Strad instead of one that’s been heavily reworked or may not retain all its original parts)? What about the variety in a maker’s work? For many old violins, the time period in the maker’s career will play a significant role in its evaluation. 
 

I don’t think the categories in the OP are reasonable. Maybe that was the point of starting the discussion. In my mind there aren’t enough of them and too many things are grouped together that don’t make sense to me. In the end, I’m not sure a hierarchical list will be all that useful. Whatever constitutes the best violin for each player will not be a constant across a group of players. 

[Jonathan B]

My version would be:

At the top, violins by the big name seventeenth and eighteenth century Italians, where the very high price reflects the bragging rights more than the playing qualities. Often owned as investment assets rather than by a player, but loaned to a big name soloist.

Second, violins in the roughly $25K to 100K+ range, where the playing qualities are not meaningfully less than the above. These include some "lesser" antique Italian makers as well as high quality instruments from other respected makers, of any nationality or period including the best contemporary makers. Soloists and orchestral principals who need to buy their own instruments are likely to aspire to something in this range.

Third, violins roughly $5K to 25K, good quality instruments that may come from well respected workshops as well as those from individual makers. While on average these violins aren't at the same as the level above there is considerable variability and some of these violins will match more expensive instruments tonally. Many professionals will have instruments in this range, as will wealthy amateurs.

Fourth, around the $1K to 5K marks. This is the level that students move to when they start taking violin seriously, it includes a lot of violins from the big centres of violin-making a hundred years ago as well as the better modern Chinese and East European lines. There is even more variability in these violins, the best match those at several times the price, others are frankly disappointing.

Finally, the beginner violins typically costing less than $1K. These include some perfectly serviceable instruments, whether modern mass production or reasonably maintained older German equivalents, but also some VSOs that don't merit the word "instrument". At this level they are really for those whose skills haven't yet advanced to where they can exploit the tonal possibilities of the better grades.

(I have guessed at dollar prices from what I know of UK pound prices, however some shops in the US seem to advertise instruments online at higher prices than the same would sell for in the UK).

[EDIT: thinking about it later, my suggesting a price threshold of $5K is probably too low - I forgot to add a bit for the conversion £ to $ and to allow for inflation since we were violin shopping. It should probably be close to the lowest amount a newly trained violin maker might charge for an instrument, maybe $8K; someone will no doubt chip in and say what that is].

[Dr. Mark]

28 minutes ago, Jonathan B said:

Second, violins in the roughly $25K to 100K+ range, where the playing qualities are not meaningfully less than the above...etc

So, there we have it.  Excepting the 'big name' investment instruments, if you put a price tag of $4k on your instrument it's not as good as it would be if you charged $10k.  It's evidently just a fact of economics.

[GeorgeH]

Price is not set based on tone quality. Geographic origin exerts no effect on tone quality. There is "considerable variability" in tone quality at all price points of non-VSO instruments.

[Jwillis]

Funny all violin shops I’ve sold to pick up the violin and play it…

[martin swan]

3 hours ago, Jwillis said:

Funny all violin shops I’ve sold to pick up the violin and play it…

They are asking themselves "will I ever sell it" not "how much can I charge for it" ...

[GeorgeH]

5 hours ago, Jwillis said:

Funny all violin shops I’ve sold to pick up the violin and play it…

Do you set your price only after they have played it?

[Jwillis]

11 hours ago, martin swan said:

They are asking themselves "will I ever sell it" not "how much can I charge for it" ...

This is probably true 

 

9 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

Do you set your price only after they have played it?

No but I’ve had to lower my price upon reflection  

[Jwillis]

And I have often thought “this would have gone far better without a hasty setup”. New instruments are particularly tricky