Violin cleaner ingredients enquiries

[hnryhouuu]

I am currently making a cleaner recipe based off of Mr Jacob Saunder’s recipe, which consists of :

1 part water (out of the tap)

1 part spirit of campfer (from the apothecary)

1 part turpentine (not to be confused with turpentine substitute!")

1 Part paraffin oil (from the apothecary)

I would like to ask are there any substitutes with similar effect of camphor spirit? As my city does not sell camphor spirit. Can I just use 75% alcohol to replace? Or the camphor plays a major role?

also, for turpentine, is ‘rectified turpentine’ the correct ingredient? What is the difference between ‘Venetian turpentine’, ‘turpentine distilled’ etc?

lastly, is the usage of TAP water important? Is there a reason tap water is used but not distilled?

Mr Saunders said he isint a chemist, hence he isint able to answer such questions.

 

[jacobsaunders]

I use Spirit of campfer, which I buy from the apothecary, it says “solutio camphorae spirituosa” on the bottle. They never have it in stock, but one has to order it. Ethanol certainly isn’t a substitute.

“Rectified Terpentine is a liquid, and Venitian Terpentine is a goo

43 minutes ago, hnryhouuu said:

 

Mr Saunders said he isint a chemist, hence he isint able to answer such questions.

 

Damn right, you can say that again!

[hnryhouuu]

57 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I use Spirit of campfer, which I buy from the apothecary, it says “solutio camphorae spirituosa” on the bottle. They never have it in stock, but one has to order it. Ethanol certainly isn’t a substitute.

“Rectified Terpentine is a liquid, and Venitian Terpentine is a goo

Damn right, you can say that again!

Mr Saunders!! It’s great to see you here

so what could I do if camphor spirit isint available? Could I add camphor oil and alcohol?

Edited December 15, 2024 by hnryhouuu
Add stuff

[jacobsaunders]

2 minutes ago, hnryhouuu said:

 

so what could I do if camphor spirit isint available? Could I add camphor oil and alcohol?

If someone gives you the reipe of the cleaner he has used for decades, you can’t change all the ingredients, and then say you are using his cleaner

[fiddlecollector]

4 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

I use Spirit of campfer, which I buy from the apothecary, it says “solutio camphorae spirituosa” on the bottle. They never have it in stock, but one has to order it. Ethanol certainly isn’t a substitute.

“Rectified Terpentine is a liquid, and Venitian Terpentine is a goo

Damn right, you can say that again!

spirit of camphor usually consists of around 70- 90 % ethanol.The alcohol is neccessary to dissolve into a solution the camphor (which is a solid).

Camphor essential oil is usually a mixture containing limonene. Limonene is often added to paint strippers.

[hnryhouuu]

8 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

spirit of camphor usually consists of around 70- 90 % ethanol.The alcohol is neccessary to dissolve into a solution the camphor (which is a solid).

Camphor essential oil is usually a mixture containing limonene. Limonene is often added to paint strippers.

Yes I’m aware entanol is present, I just wanna know if anyone knows if the camphor added is essential or no in the solution (does camphor contribute to anything in the cleaning properties)

btw, do you mean do not use camphor oil?

[Wood Butcher]

I know this won't be a popular view, but why not just buy a ready-made varnish cleaner, which doesn't have the potential to ruin your violin?

Mixing random chemicals, and substituting some of them for something else, would seem to carry an unnecessary risk. I would also say there is a big difference between someone with the extensive experience of Jacob, compared to winging it for the first time.

[fiddlecollector]

2 hours ago, hnryhouuu said:

Yes I’m aware entanol is present, I just wanna know if anyone knows if the camphor added is essential or no in the solution (does camphor contribute to anything in the cleaning properties)

btw, do you mean do not use camphor oil?

I dont know ,i have never used the said recipe , essential oil is a different thing and some can burn through finishes easily. I dont know if the spirit of campfor is just camphor dissolved in ethanol or something else. there are lots of similar sounding things and easily to pick up the wrong one. Ask Jacob what the ingredients of the spirit of campfor are that he uses.

[David Burgess]

Generally accepted "best practice" these days is to start with one of the mildest, but also most universal solvents, that being water.
The next step might be trying deionized water, which has greater solvent power than tap water. Then you continue to work your way up until you find something which removes what you want to remove, hopefully without removing anything you don't want to remove, and this can be different on different instruments.

There is no universal formula for "violin cleaner".

[hnryhouuu]

6 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

I know this won't be a popular view, but why not just buy a ready-made varnish cleaner, which doesn't have the potential to ruin your violin?

Mixing random chemicals, and substituting some of them for something else, would seem to carry an unnecessary risk. I would also say there is a big difference between someone with the extensive experience of Jacob, compared to winging it for the first time.

That’s true, but as I’ve had really unsatisfactory experience with store bought cleaners (eg hill polish) and they probably contain abrasives, which the violin I used to experiment with is filled with tiny scratches. 

[LCF]

What exactly do you mean by clean? A great deal of harm can be done by excessive cleaning.

Give it a dry wipe if dusty. Use a damp soft rag if the dirt is more stubborn then gently polish with an old silk scarf. 

Keep it simple.

 

[Brad Dorsey]

7 hours ago, David Burgess said:

Generally accepted "best practice" these days is to start with one of the mildest, but also most universal solvents, that being water.
The next step might be trying deionized water, which has greater solvent power than tap water...

A little soap added to the water would increase its effectiveness and still be pretty safe.

 

7 hours ago, David Burgess said:

...There is no universal formula for "violin cleaner".

Yes.

[hnryhouuu]

20 minutes ago, LCF said:

What exactly do you mean by clean? A great deal of harm can be done by excessive cleaning.

Give it a dry wipe if dusty. Use a damp soft rag if the dirt is more stubborn then gently polish with an old silk scarf. 

Keep it simple.

 

Like keep the violin away from rosin (yes, I wipe clean everyday but still there’s those sticky spots)

and how do you ‘polish’? What solutions or methods do you use?

[LCF]

57 minutes ago, hnryhouuu said:

Like keep the violin away from rosin (yes, I wipe clean everyday but still there’s those sticky spots)

and how do you ‘polish’? What solutions or methods do you use?

My solution is not to use any solutions 

[jacobsaunders]

12 hours ago, LCF said:

What exactly do you mean by clean? A great deal of harm can be done by excessive cleaning.

Give it a dry wipe if dusty. Use a damp soft rag if the dirt is more stubborn then gently polish with an old silk scarf. 

Keep it simple.

 

Such a nihilistic approach may be fine for a musician, but not for a restorer faced with a seriously unhygienic instrument. Also one should warn that water is, in some cases, far from the harmless option portrayed, weather with soap or not

[JimBonzo]

Saliva works and is always in stock.

 

Add a bit of alcohol and try it out. You just won't be able to call it Jacob Saunder's Violin Cleaner.

[LCF]

8 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Such a nihilistic approach may be fine for a musician, but not for a restorer faced with a seriously unhygienic instrument. Also one should warn that water is, in some cases, far from the harmless option portrayed, weather with soap or not

There is no solvent which is safe in all the various cases. I was unwilling to endorse the use of any untested concoction in relatively unskilled hands. Experience such as yours in the field  makes all the difference. 

 

Experience is not usually listed along with the other ingredients. 

[M Alpert]

51 minutes ago, LCF said:

Experience is not usually listed along with the other ingredients. 

I knew there had to be a secret ingredient!

So that's what it's called. Finally I know!

Is it a liquid, or a solid? Can you get it at the local pharmacy? Does experience come mixed with alcohol, or other solvent substances?

If only they had written more about that in the old Italian recipes...

[uguntde]

Alcohols are a bad idea as they will damage most varnishes.

Camphor is a strange choice, especially as it is a mixture of natural products. It may work though. It is listed as carcinogenic, but some people like(d) to inhale it.

Xylol used to be used to remove rosin deposites - the sweet smelling stuff that used to dissolved most varnishes 20 years ago. It will not dissolve spirit or oil varnishes. Xylol is higfhly flamable, potentially carcinogenic. I think it is safe if you can get it. In Europe this can be purchased in hardware stores.

Today I would use an alkane mixture. Here sold as brake cleaner spray. It should not remove varnish but take away rosin deposites and dirt. This stuff is very apolar.

Try any of this first on a corner or samples.

[GeorgeH]

I have used a commercial product called "Simple Green" and microfiber cloths to remove dark rosin build-ups without damaging varnishes. As always, test first.

When Simple Green has not worked, I have used a saturated slurry of baking soda in water for removing very old rosin deposits from violin and bows.

[Randall The Restorer]

Tap water varies from town to town, well to well,  house to house. The reactive dissolved and suspended contents can include metals, chlorine, fluorine, iodine, calcium, hydrocarbons, and microorganisms.

Distilled water is a chemically pure substance and therefore consistent across time and space; results are predictable and controllable.

[Randall The Restorer]

The safest effective, least expensive, most readily available cleaner for violins and guitars is:

Everyman’s Water Based Enzymatic Cleaning Solution also known as Human Saliva. (available unscented or in coffee, mint, whiskey, onion, and garlic scents)

(saliva is recommended by Dan Erlewine, master guitar restorer with extensive experience  in shellac, varnish, and nitrocellulose lacquer finishes). 

The purpose of saliva is to break the chemical bonds in starches and to partially emulsify fats and provide lubrication for mastication (chewing). Obviously, saliva is chemically harmless to human tissue and most animals.

Saliva is perfectly made to remove the rosin, perspiration, skin oils, dead skin, and other krud that accumulates on violins, guitars, etc. A piece of clean old cotton t-shirt or linen handkerchief is an ideal cleaning cloth. 

Always remove the saliva residue by wiping with fresh distilled water.
Finally, to kill germs wipe with a clean cloth moistened with 3% hydrogen peroxide solution  or use a sanitizing UV light.  
 

I have personally used these materials and techniques to remove very old and thick rosin deposits and to clean the grimiest and grungiest guitar fretboards.

**For complete safety, only use your own saliva to clean your own stringed instruments.**

Keep your comments clean and polite (especially directed to D.B. of Ann Arbor)

Yous truly,

Randy O’Malley 
 

[LCF]

On 12/17/2024 at 9:27 AM, M Alpert said:

I knew there had to be a secret ingredient!

So that's what it's called. Finally I know!

Is it a liquid, or a solid? Can you get it at the local pharmacy? Does experience come mixed with alcohol, or other solvent substances?

If only they had written more about that in the old Italian recipes...

It is an expensive nonetheless intangible substance.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

13 hours ago, Randall The Restorer said:

The safest effective, least expensive, most readily available cleaner for violins and guitars is:

Everyman’s Water Based Enzymatic Cleaning Solution also known as Human Saliva. (available unscented or in coffee, mint, whiskey, onion, and garlic scents)

(saliva is recommended by Dan Erlewine, master guitar restorer with extensive experience  in shellac, varnish, and nitrocellulose lacquer finishes). 

 

Saliva has been discussed on MN in the past (and is one of the tools used by painting restorers and conservators) and the discussion even prompted a couple of us trying some synthetic alternatives on instruments (I was one).

(https://www.insituconservation.com/en/products/reagents/synthetic_saliva).

Not sure that I'd choose to spit on a cotton ball and rub it all over some poor players fiddle these days (covid, etc).

Gentle cleaner.  Certainly not effective on all kinds of grime, but a step up from distilled water. Wasn't crazy about the results of the synthetics I personally tried, but I've been curious about the one I supplied the link to above.

[Randall The Restorer]

On 12/21/2024 at 8:16 AM, Jeffrey Holmes said:

Wasn't crazy about the results of the synthetics I personally tried, but I've been curious about the one I supplied the link to above.

Jeffrey,

As a Respiratory Care Practititioner and Food Scientist, I know quite a bit about saliva. 

Saliva is effective at cleaning violins and guitars because it contains digestive enzymes and surfactants, and is slightly acidic. 

I would suggest making your own synthetic "saliva" with the following ingredients:

• distilled water
• lemon juice or white vinegar or citric acid to adjust pH (use test strips from pharmacy)
• the product Beano (contains the complex carbohydrate digesting enzyme Alpha-galactosidase) 
• bromelain, papain, serrapeptase (proteolytic protein digesting enzymes)
• a tiny amount of liquid soap to act as a surfactant (Murphy's Oil Soap or Castille)

All of the above ingredients are inexpensive and readily available at pharmacies and natural/health food stores. Furthermore, they benefit overall human health IF consumed appropriately. 

**This recipe is based on textbook human and plant biochemistry and physiology.  I have not actually made this concotion. I would start with one tablet or capsule of each enzyme in 100 mL of water at body temperature and 6.2 pH.

Cotton guaze pads; clean, bare fingertips; eyeglass cleaning cloths, will have a scratch-free scrubbing effect.

If you make this recipe and use it on an instrument or piece of furniture please let me know how it works.

Sincerely,

Randy O'Malley