Better Value Today Than 30-40 yeas ago?

[Alto Ego]

I’m about to embark on a quest to purchase a viola for my son (I’ll play it too) and wanted opinions on where our baseline should be. Looking in the $4-6k range, and we will not have the help of his teacher as he does lessons online due to our remote location.

I’ve been told that the quality of modern $3k instruments (mainly Chinese) are superior than 1980s-1990s vintage instruments for double the money. Is this true?

[GoPractice]

What are truths?

The instruments, as the Chinese option was not available at that pricepoint, at $3kusd on the the westcoast were quite good in the 80s. That started to change into the 90s where awareness to many aspects of instruments were improving. There were some French options with lesser known Italian instruments closer to $3-5kusd. Times, circumstances, geographies and needs varied. By the late 90s, there were many notable American makers and players/ instructors who embraced those instruments

Some German workshop violas around $2k during the early 80s, which I own one example, are quite exceptional.

A Toyota Pick up truck with no a/c, manual and manual windows was about the same price.

In youth orchestras from San Diego, Long Beach, Los Angeles, bay area, Portland, Seattle, Vancouver?  were on similar instruments and we played what we had...

To generically describe anythings superior, are difficult.

With inflation in mind, can I purchase a Toyota branded Tacoma for anything less than $10kusd? that would be impossible, even for a reliable Toyota truck from the 2010s.

It is not so helpful - for me - to make these comparisons, except that, we address the fact that things change. Bowed String instrument playing can be easier now to start, due to the availability of more playable instruments. And better strings. And better shops. And the people who care ( like those on this site. )

I have attended a battery of middle and high school concerts these past weeks and can address that the Spike Virus did not make things better. This year was the first expression where the winds/ brass had better performances than the strings at many schools.

There are excellent Chinese instruments but each instrument is different and may suit the needs of any particular player.

Do your homework. Take some time if you have it. Learn as one goes...

[M Alpert]

If you're in a remote place, you might do best to make a sort of holiday of it - go to a big city where there are a few good shops, and try things out. Then you'll be able to understand what quality you can get for your budget. (Remember also to consider ethics when considering Chinese - it's cheaper for you, but is that the only criteria?)

[Alto Ego]

Thanks for the replies. Pardon my naivety, but are there issues with the ethics of Chinese-made string instruments at this price point? We're not in the market for a Lark or equivalent. If there are, I'll certainly rule them out.

We do plan on taking a holiday to some of the larger cities to check out some shops. Back in the early '90s, my parents and teacher brought me to Weavers in Bethesda where I was able to try various instruments prior to the purchase. I believe they were from Germany that were set up by Mr. Weaver, or an associate of his. I ended up with a viola that I still adore to this day. However, it's a little big for my son and he prefers a smaller (15.5") instrument.

We have appointments to sample 1980s-1990s English and German instruments in the $5-$6k range, but I have read that it's worth trying out Jay Haide and MJZ instruments at half the price. Perhaps we should start with the Chinese-made instruments instead? Our time in the cities is limited and we're trying to optimize our trip. Thanks again.  

[FiddleDoug]

One thing that I might speculate on (no personal professional experience on this), is that taking lessons online, unless you have professional microphones on your end, and professional speakers on the teacher's end, might be a problem. Without professional sound equipment, I'm not sure that the teacher will be able to tell the difference between a 3K instrument and a 6K instrument. Can you really afford the extra cost?

[Bodacious Cowboy]

What ethical issues are involved in buying Chinese-made musical instruments?

Are they in a different ethical category than iPhones and MacBooks?

 

[deans]

I see a lot successful kids using higher grade Chinese instruments. I can say the same from the Weaver era Doetsch line. If you can find another of those the right size I'd snatch it up. Rare to find one from 1980s-90s.

[Alto Ego]

That's a fair point FiddleDoug. The reality is that we're going to have to rely on our ears, and the ears of the shop to decide which instrument sounds best. I suppose we could go for a Scott Cao model 750 or an MJZ 900-series (around that $2k). I realize that they both make more expensive models, but again, it was my understanding that these newer and more affordable Chinese-made instruments outperform 30-40 year old $4-6k European instruments.

Deans, I have a 1991 Weaver viola (Potters says it's a Dai Brothers--never head of them) that we'll bring along for comparison.

[M Alpert]

6 hours ago, Alto Ego said:

Thanks for the replies. Pardon my naivety, but are there issues with the ethics of Chinese-made string instruments at this price point? We're not in the market for a Lark or equivalent. If there are, I'll certainly rule them out.

2 hours ago, Bodacious Cowboy said:

What ethical issues are involved in buying Chinese-made musical instruments?

Are they in a different ethical category than iPhones and MacBooks?

 

 

I'm not a large fan of anything made in China, and believe definitely there are ethical issues. When you have worked in western shops where you see the prices shops pay for Chinese instruments, well... there is just no way people are getting a decent wage to make them. Even if their food costs 1/100th of ours. Even if half (or more) of the construction is done by CNC.

No, there is no way western makers can compete pricewise, and yes, there must inherently be ethical issues.

I am not personally familiar with Jay Haide instrument makers' working conditions, nor others' either. But some of my colleagues have seen things to make them concerned, and been deterred from access to the real workshops.

I also buy some things from China; some things are not made anywhere else anymore. Some things are simply outrageously different in price. But yes, I believe there are ethical issues. If you can get a good older instrument at a similar price, do it!

Please, someone else with personal experience, share it!

[deans]

A good compromise might be the Scott Cao 1500, made in the CA shop. I've seen a few of these recently, they're nice. At the 6k price point it may be my first choice.

[The Violin Beautiful]

1 hour ago, Alto Ego said:

That's a fair point FiddleDoug. The reality is that we're going to have to rely on our ears, and the ears of the shop to decide which instrument sounds best. I suppose we could go for a Scott Cao model 750 or an MJZ 900-series (around that $2k). I realize that they both make more expensive models, but again, it was my understanding that these newer and more affordable Chinese-made instruments outperform 30-40 year old $4-6k European instruments.

Deans, I have a 1991 Weaver viola (Potters says it's a Dai Brothers--never head of them) that we'll bring along for comparison.

I’d say that the overall quality of factory instruments at the low end (not the absolute bottom, which remains terrible) has improved in the last 20-30 years. Going back a little further in time the comparison with European instruments becomes arguable.

One thing I might mention is that the wood in new factory instruments tends to be pretty green despite what the sellers claim about years of aging before the wood is used, so many of the instruments have a somewhat “soggy” feel and sound to them.

The Dai brothers went to the Salt Lake school and are featured in a book honoring the school’s tradition a while back. They made instruments for Weaver’s for a while. When I was working at Weaver’s, I’d see those instruments come through occasionally. They tend to have the “House of Weaver” label. 

[Alto Ego]

Great info TVB, thank you!

I’m constantly amazed at how people will know who made what and when. The folks at Potter said that this one was #32. I suppose that a catalogue of instruments is maintained to refer back to?

[La Folia]

On 12/14/2024 at 12:29 PM, Alto Ego said:

I’m about to embark on a quest to purchase a viola for my son (I’ll play it too) and wanted opinions on where our baseline should be. Looking in the $4-6k range, and we will not have the help of his teacher as he does lessons online due to our remote location.

I’ve been told that the quality of modern $3k instruments (mainly Chinese) are superior than 1980s-1990s vintage instruments for double the money. Is this true?

Huh?  In 1984 I was offered a nice Vuillaume Stentor in excellent condition for $3000.  What would that cost me today?

[Alto Ego]

17 hours ago, La Folia said:

Huh?  In 1984 I was offered a nice Vuillaume Stentor in excellent condition for $3000.  What would that cost me today?

Probably $40-50k for the real deal. Did you buy it?

[La Folia]

On 12/16/2024 at 2:43 PM, Alto Ego said:

Probably $40-50k for the real deal. Did you buy it?

No, I bought a nice German violin because I preferred it, but of all the violins in Chicago at that price range, the Vuillaume was my second or third choice.  And it was the real deal.

I don't regret the choice, because the price won't ever matter except to my estate.

[joerobson]

Contact Kory @korinthianviolons.com