What do you say when a customer says...

[M Alpert]

Here's a stumper for all of our professional colleagues:

What do you say when a customer shows you the violin or bow they bought in Italy (or somewhere) that was "an unbelievable deal", great local craftsmanship, blablablah.

And you can see it's the same Chinese (crap) quality that you've seen many times before...?

And yet, the customer is not a newbie, but a professional player?

I hate to just nod and say nothing... but how to break this bull$#!+ illusion without offending the person?

Whine whine...

[martin swan]

A musician's relationship with their instrument is a matter of what they believe it to be.

If their belief is mistaken, let someone else be responsible for shattering the illusion.

Really your gripe is with the "maker" who sold the instrument as something it wasn't - you could always take issue with them directly.

[GeorgeH]

"Uh huh. Have you had it professionally appraised? You should probably consider doing that just for insurance purposes. Then you'd know exactly what it is worth."

Let somebody else break them the bad news. Or let them pay you for your opinion. :-)

If they press you for a free verbal opinion ("what do you think it is worth?"), simply say, "I don't think it is what you think it is, so you should probably ask somebody else."

[Blank face]

34 minutes ago, M Alpert said:

but how to break this bull$#!+ illusion without offending the person?

Very easy. Tell them to start a Pegbox thread about it and they might learn more than they ever asked for.

[martin swan]

5 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Very easy. Tell them to start a Pegbox thread about it and they might learn more than they ever asked for.

Even if the violin isn't Chinese it will be after 24 hours on Maestronet

[match]

19 minutes ago, martin swan said:

A musician's relationship with their instrument is a matter of what they believe it to be.

If their belief is mistaken, let someone else be responsible for shattering the illusion.

I only understood this strange thing when a rather thoughtful person told me about how they brought their "XXX" bow to a workshop for repair: "And then that jerk told me, "But this bow isn't an XXX." As if I had asked him about it. He'll never see me again..."

4 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Very easy. Tell them to start a Pegbox thread about it and they might learn more than they ever asked for.

Especially if he's "asking for a friend".

[M Alpert]

2 hours ago, martin swan said:

Really your gripe is with the "maker" who sold the instrument as something it wasn't - you could always take issue with them directly.

Indeed - if I only who that "maker" is!

[M Alpert]

2 hours ago, Blank face said:

Very easy. Tell them to start a Pegbox thread about it and they might learn more than they ever asked for.

Brilliant!! Thanks for that.

[duane88]

I recall Chris Reuning saying, in a lecture at the VSA, that when you tell someone that what they have isn't what they think it is or thought that they were sold, they aren't upset with the person who sold it to them, they are upset with you for telling them!

Best left alone, and if they happen to ask for an insurance document, refer them to the seller/maker.

[The Violin Beautiful]

There’s a difference between a customer showing an instrument and telling you it’s made by someone and asking you for an opinion of the authenticity.

If you haven’t been asked to comment on its authenticity, I would caution against disputing it unless you can be very certain that the attribution is wrong.  If you are certain, however, it may be worth it to share your opinion. It must be done respectfully and carefully, and you do risk embarrassing or offending the customer, but if the customer has any integrity, your honesty will mean something in the long run. 
 

Asking if there is a certificate is a decent way to start, or simply suggesting that an expert assess it can be useful. It’s not always a good idea to just give a stamp of approval to whatever is put before you because there’s a good chance the customer will eventually discover that the violin is problematic; then you may look either dishonest for not sharing that you knew or ignorant for not seeming to know.

Beware red herrings. While there are mountains of spurious examples, there are also a lot of genuine instruments that are just quirky enough to make them look doubtful. Many makers experiment with different ideas over their careers, and while some experiments may last years, some are confined to a single instrument. Wear and repair work can also change a lot of the appearance over time.

If you’re not certain that the violin is wrong, there’s no need to present an opinion one way or another. You can simply congratulate the customer for finding an instrument that’s pleasing. Remember that whatever you do say can and will be used against you in the court of the customer’s peers. 

[Christopher Jacoby]

People will also test you out this way. I find it offensive and tiring, but it keeps happening.

They bring something in and mis-attribute it, or say someone else has, and then see if you "know your stuff" by your response. Sigh.

[M Alpert]

@The Violin Beautiful well said - I definitely agree. Some cases are just so obvious, and when someone is so proud of the great deal they got... sigh, indeed.

You all are surely right, I would get hate for saying something. That's why I have bit my tongue. But it's sort of comforting to hear I'm not alone in that annoying place!

2 hours ago, Christopher Jacoby said:

People will also test you out this way. I find it offensive and tiring, but it keeps happening.

They bring something in and mis-attribute it, or say someone else has, and then see if you "know your stuff" by your response. Sigh.

And this is just the worst, indeed. Bah! Knaves!!

[HoGo]

What would you say if the customer wants to leave the instrument in your workshop for repairs? If something happens (fire, theft...) would you owe him a real thing or just another chinese fake? Even your insurance company may question it's value without trusted certificate.

[David Burgess]

Ah, the "test you" customer.

I've had a lot of those over my career, and I think they are only trying to do due diligence, in the best way they can figure out.

What better alternate methods would one suggest for such customers?

[Dr. Mark]

Make attributing the instrument a service and set a fee.  You can set your fee to some fraction, say 0.5%, of the asking price for an instrument of the maker you attribute it to.  If that doesn't discourage inquiries just don't offer the service - it doesn't stop you from helping the customer to find out elsewhere.

But I do like the Pegbox idea lol.

[David Burgess]

12 minutes ago, Dr. Mark said:

Make attributing the instrument a service and set a fee.  You can set your fee to some fraction, say 0.5%, of the asking price for an instrument of the maker you attribute it to.

Stuff like that is already going on, and it is not without problems.

For example, let's say that an appraiser can make 0.5% by appraising a violin at 200 dollars, or at 5 million dollars. What works out better for the appraiser? And are there not really sketchy people all over the place?

[Dr. Mark]

4 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

For example, let's say that an appraiser can make 0.5% by appraising a violin at 200 dollars, or at 5 million dollars. What works out better for the appraiser?

Oh - well, I expected the customer to reach that conclusion before he/she asked.  I guess I overestimate people...

[David Burgess]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Mark said:

Oh - well, I expected the customer to reach that conclusion before he/she asked.  I guess I overestimate people...

I envy your optimism.

[jacobsaunders]

If you charge money for any appraisal, a “contract” (i.e. you sell your expertise for money) has been made, and one could conceivably argued with (lawyer!). If you just say it’s a POS and don’t charge anything, no contract (i.e. no exchange of effort) has happened, and you can hardly be held to account

[David Burgess]

13 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

If you charge money for any appraisal, a “contract” (i.e. you sell your expertise for money) has been made, and one could conceivably argued with (lawyer!). If you just say it’s a POS and don’t charge anything, no contract (i.e. no exchange of effort) has happened, and you can hardly be held to account

While that may be the way things are in Austria, in the US, one can be sued for any utterance, or even lack thereof.

[Rue]

10 hours ago, martin swan said:

Even if the violin isn't Chinese it will be after 24 hours on Maestronet

**giggle**

[nathan slobodkin]

3 hours ago, HoGo said:

What would you say if the customer wants to leave the instrument in your workshop for repairs? If something happens (fire, theft...) would you owe him a real thing or just another chinese fake? Even your insurance company may question it's value without trusted certificate.

Definitely something which worries me also. I usually describe instruments on the repair ticket as “labeled as” or “bearing the stamp” Unless I am quite certain of the attribution.

[Andreas Preuss]

Much depends on how good and how long you know the customer.

It’s much about psychology. Just the fact that a client is talking with praise and pride about his/her instrument is seeking a supportive and positive answer. In that case I think it is enough just to keep silent. I would only say something if this customer would really pressure me for an answer. 
 

There I would probably answer with a question. ‘What was the trigger to buy it?’ And then there is a good chance that Italian or not is not mentioned at the top of arguments. This gives room for appropriate answers. 
 

[Jeffrey Holmes]

20 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

If you charge money for any appraisal, a “contract” (i.e. you sell your expertise for money) has been made, and one could conceivably argued with (lawyer!). If you just say it’s a POS and don’t charge anything, no contract (i.e. no exchange of effort) has happened, and you can hardly be held to account

 

20 hours ago, David Burgess said:

While that may be the way things are in Austria, in the US, one can be sued for any utterance, or even lack thereof.

David is correct... and law suits have resulted. An appraiser needs to be especially cautious about utterances in auction houses and galleries. 

[Wood Butcher]

Sounds like anything can get you into trouble with lawyers, must even tougher now with drones listening to your every word at night, if you happen to be near the beach.