French Violin ID

[tetler]

Hello folks. Any thoughts about this one? The label looks different from other labels of that maker. There are no stamps or other markings inside, and the center seam is cleated 

Edited December 27, 2024 by tetler
typo

[uguntde]

Later Bernardel labels look different. The violin has some Bernardel features, but it all looks not good enough to my humble eyes. Bernardel could do scrolls where the fluting goes around until the bitter end. I often wondered how he did this, maybe he had a bent chisel. His purfling is wide (almost cello size) without any kinks. The edge work is absolute perfection. The f-holes have a sharp rise and edge to the inside of the table. I have never seen this missing. This was a time where French makers liked to show perfection in workmanship. I don't see this in your violin, even though it looks French.

Bernardel violins also have several stamps inside, if I remember correctly in a small sans serif font. You may need a mirror to see those.

I have never seen an early Bernardel though (No 7), maybe this was his 6th when he was very young. Otherwise I think he counted all of his Gand&Bernardel instruments in his numbering.

 

[tetler]

Thanks for your input. I was also wondering if the violin could be very early Bernardel. To me, the head shows a combination of features that seem a bit unusual (characteristic of a particluar workshop?). Maybe  @martin swan or @lFred have some thoughts.

[uguntde]

To my knowledge he worked with his father only. The features you point out on the scroll are all strange. I also miss this level of detail shown in the picture below.

[tetler]

I see what you mean. I'm not expecting it to be a Bernardel, really. Was posting in the hope that someone recognizes something that can point in a certain direction 

[uguntde]

Maybe a JTL? High linings, square-shaped blocks would be typical.

[tetler]

Thanks, I'll post some pictures of the inside soon

[Guido]

On 12/20/2024 at 5:40 AM, uguntde said:

Maybe a JTL? High linings, square-shaped blocks would be typical.

Op reminds me of JTL Barnabetti

[tetler]

Here are some pictures of the inside. For some reason, I originally wrote that the back seam is not cleated, but it obviously is..

[lFred]

To be honest I don't know what to say beside the obvious, work seems on the good workshop mirecourt side, in the line of ( Collin Mezin /Couesnon Mermillot L Bernardel  etc) but way to many steps down Gustave Bernardel instruments.


 

[tetler]

6 hours ago, lFred said:

To be honest I don't know what to say beside the obvious, work seems on the good workshop mirecourt side, in the line of ( Collin Mezin /Couesnon Mermillot L Bernardel  etc) but way to many steps down Gustave Bernardel instruments.


 

Thanks for your input! Have you seen those features I described on the back of the head before? I was hoping they might be distinctive to a specific workshop 

[Marcus London]

The label is spurious/aspirational, as others have pointed out. Gustave Bernardel only began using his own name on labels after his partner Charles Eugene Gand died on 5th February 1892. The first ‘Gustave' Bernardel was no. 1559 tabled on 29th April.

Looks like a nice violin of about that date, though… from someone who admired G&B.

The French, justly proud of their violinmaking tradition have digitised the ledgers of Gand and Bernardel Freres [1866-1886], Gand and Bernardel [1886-1892], Gustave Bernardel [1892-1901], and Caressa and Francais [1901-1923]. We can now trace exactly when each numbered  violin, alto, cello or bass was ‘tabled', the back in one piece or two, the date and the amount for which it was sold and to whom.

See here: http://archivesmusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/lupot-gand-bernardel-caressa-francais-reading-support.aspx?_lg=en-US

G&B had [to use modern terminology] a small and highly select ‘shop’, excellent quality control, and employed top bowmakers. The instruments are <exquisite>. G&Bs are never antiqued [as far as I can see] and violins are more or less all on the same model, outside mould, Strad type via Lupot, 357mm back. [Others please correct me if I am wrong.]

They sound <big>. G&B made a whole orchestral string section for the Trocadero and were luthiers to the music academy and king/emperor [it varied]. Mostly deep red oil varnish though Gustave started to go brown in the 1890s… gold&rosewood pegs on the posher instruments.

I play a Gustave Bernardel which Millant says is a Gand and Bernardel since it has internal brands for both.  It was tabled after Gand died…  shows that they branded as they went…it’s a lovely instrument.

Martin Swan [huge respect] sometimes sniffs at G&B violins for sounding shrill. To anyone playing a late 19th century French violin I would say try them with low tension strings - Dominants or Laarsen Tzigane…  they were designed for gut stings including gut Es [steel E's were only introduced about 1900]. The relative tension especially between between G string and E made a big difference for me - the lower tension E opened up the sound of the G, I wonder if any others have encountered this?

I’m a great fan of French 19th century instruments and think G&Bs are a good ‘straight’ equivalent to a JBV ‘Strad’. At the time they were equivalent price. 

 

[uguntde]

The archivesmusee register is new to me - what a phantastic resource.

I also have a Gustave Bernardel and love and sometimes hate it. It does not sound shrill, I woulld rather say it is extremely overtone-rich. One is always heard with this instrument, the sound is penetrating or call it carrying, but at the ear it is somewhat thin. From a distance it sounds great.

Other French makers of that time have not gone this way. For example many Derazey violins have a meatier tone, closer to the taste of our time.

The craftsmenship of G Bernardel and G & Bernardel violins is incredible. If you want to be critical you could of course say it is very predictable, but make a scroll where the fluting goes in perfection until the bitter end, or where the f-holes are cut in such perfection. Derazey could not compete with this. Gang & Bernardel must have been proud of these skills.

[martin swan]

On 2/1/2025 at 3:15 PM, Marcus London said:

 

Martin Swan sometimes sniffs at G&B violins for sounding shrill. To anyone playing a late 19th century French violin I would say try them with low tension strings 

I do indeed! However, I see you are a hardcore fan and I like that ...

It's like Vuillaume - in terms of workmanship you can't fault them. In terms of sound, a few are great, many are good, but more still are hideous. Whenever I come across a G&B that sounds good I try to acquire it, and generally we sell them easily.

I don't think the gut string argument holds up since this is true of all violins pre-1950 or so. Perhaps the 19th century French tendency to set the nut low in relation to the plane of the body, increasing the string angle, exacerbates this - but many/most have had neck resets. Back length - we have had G&Bs at 355, 358, 359, and recently I saw one at auction that was 360.

 

 

 

[CantPlayChaconne]

2 hours ago, martin swan said:

I don't think the gut string argument holds up since this is true of all violins pre-1950 or so.

I’ve been wondering about this, perhaps you could share a bit more. I have been told that some violins made in the early 20th century (1900-1930?) were actually thicknessed specifically to mitigate the harsh qualities of the steel wire strings that were popular at the time. Consequently these violins, when strung with lower tension modern synthetic (or even gut) strings, may sound terrible. Have you ever heard this?
 

[martin swan]

4 hours ago, CantPlayChaconne said:

I’ve been wondering about this, perhaps you could share a bit more. I have been told that some violins made in the early 20th century (1900-1930?) were actually thicknessed specifically to mitigate the harsh qualities of the steel wire strings that were popular at the time. Consequently these violins, when strung with lower tension modern synthetic (or even gut) strings, may sound terrible. Have you ever heard this?
 

It's not something I've come across but it's possible ...

I'm aware that a lot of early 20th century Italian violins are very heavy, but I was told (by Italians) that this was because they were made by Fascists who felt that their masculinity was compromised by making violins, and that a good violin should be dual purpose - good for playing folk tunes and good for knocking in fenceposts.

[Marcus London]

No doubt a steel E sounds brighter/shriller/more upper harmonics than a gut E but not necessarily higher tension. Taking Martin Swan’s [serious] point that this applies to all pre-20th C violins, it may be this firm were looking for the ‘biggest’ sound with the strings they had available. I read somewhere that G&B experimented with pre-wound gut strings. Gustave Bernardel’s patent rosin is still with us. In a way they were innovators. Late 19th century Paris must have been an interesting place for luthiers….

[lFred]

On 1/31/2025 at 10:35 PM, tetler said:

Thanks for your input! Have you seen those features I described on the back of the head before? I was hoping they might be distinctive to a specific workshop 

I've seen that on a 186x Voirin violin

[tetler]

2 hours ago, lFred said:

I've seen that on a 186x Voirin violin

Thanks for replying. Much appreciated