How do you get honest opinions on living makers?

[szuper_bojler]

It feels like whenever I go looking for a new violin, or bow, every time I want to get a second opinion on a piece by a living maker, from another luthier, we get into this uncomfortable situation where the luthier knows the maker of the piece and therefore has hard time giving frank opinions. Sometimes they try to give their best opinions but prefixes everything they say with "we might just have different style, but I wouldn't do ... " or something equally roundabout, before ending the conversation with "don't tell this to <someone>".  The opposite can also happen when a dealership/maker just has a habit of poo-pooing everything that's not made by them. Online forums like this are even more awkward since, well, the maker in question might well be on the forum! 

Second opinions from players are very helpful, but most players simply don't know that many makers to be able to comment on the maker's reputation or give any comments beyond how the instrument sounds. It's even harder to track down one of the 50 or so people on the planet who have owned one of the instruments made by the maker. Sigh...

[Jonathan B]

Sometimes you have to trust your own judgement. If you want a new violin and you find one better - for you - than other violins (new or old) around the same price point then buy it. It is worth it to you.

If you limit your search to makers who have an established reputation (which is what you are asking for) you will find the price much higher.

[jacobsaunders]

25 minutes ago, szuper_bojler said:

It feels like whenever I go looking for a new violin, or bow, every time I want to get a second opinion on a piece by a living maker, from another luthier, we get into this uncomfortable situation where the luthier knows the maker of the piece and therefore has hard time giving frank opinions. Sometimes they try to give their best opinions but prefixes everything they say with "we might just have different style, but I wouldn't do ... " or something equally roundabout, before ending the conversation with "don't tell this to <someone>".  The opposite can also happen when a dealership/maker just has a habit of poo-pooing everything that's not made by them. Online forums like this are even more awkward since, well, the maker in question might well be on the forum! 

Second opinions from players are very helpful, but most players simply don't know that many makers to be able to comment on the maker's reputation or give any comments beyond how the instrument sounds. It's even harder to track down one of the 50 or so people on the planet who have owned one of the instruments made by the maker. Sigh...

What would you like people to do? If I were to say (without any concrete motivation) that Burgess is a pratt, I would get immense flack for what, nothing

[David Burgess]

On 12/6/2024 at 3:38 PM, jacobsaunders said:

What would you like people to do? If I were to say (without any concrete motivation) that Burgess is a pratt, I would get immense flack for what, nothing

Oh yeah? Oh yeah? Well if I'm a pratt, you're a hoser! 

[szuper_bojler]

52 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

What would you like people to do? If I were to say (without any concrete motivation) that Burgess is a pratt, I would get immense flack for what, nothing

That's fair, and that's also what's so frustrating in these kinds of situations though.

It's perfectly understandable that people don't want to comment on the work of their colleagues, but as players we're almost entirely left to rely on marketing material from the maker, teacher recommendations, and the number of awards that the maker has won. This seems to discourage people from buying more affordable instruments from potentially highly competent, but less well-known makers. 

Sometimes I wish I can just take the violin/bow to a violin appraiser to get an opinion, but I can't possibly afford do that for each violin I want to try. Welp

Edited December 6, 2024 by szuper_bojler
typo

[Shunyata]

I think there are a couple of dimensions for such a conversation.

First, you are buying the violin not the luthier.  So have a conversation about the violin.  The exception is maybe to ask whether Mr. Burgess is famous enough that the violin might appreciate in value (in my book, he is very famous).

For a lesser known maker, you might ask whether the violin was executed correctly.  You want to know if there is a weird projection, bad peg location, etc.  And the answer may be it is acceptable but not the way I do it.

Finally there is the matter of sound and playability.  This is intensely personal and can vary significantly even for a single maker.  

[martin swan]

Mostly people seek second opinions because they want to be persuaded not to buy.

And mostly that’s what happens.

[Muswell]

8 hours ago, martin swan said:

Mostly people seek second opinions because they want to be persuaded not to buy.

And mostly that’s what happens.

. Before I retired, when people came to me and asked if I would look at a letter that they wanted to send I always said don't send it, before looking at it.

[The Violin Beautiful]

A lot of it comes down to professional courtesy and a desire not to come across as insulting toward a colleague. 

It’s a potentially dangerous situation when someone asks for an opinion of the work of a living maker for several reasons. One is that comments tend to be shared, so if a luthier says something that isn’t positive, it may be broadcast to all of the prospective buyer’s friends or the maker. Then there is the issue that comments may be taken out of context. For example, a luthier may praise a number of aspects and point out one detail that is not to his own taste; the buyer is likely to forget the positive feedback and interpret the one criticism as a sign that the luthier hates the violin. Or a comment may simply be misunderstood or misinterpreted.

Another major complication is that the buyer is likely to have a strong emotional response to the comments, even though the instrument hasn’t been purchased. Some buyers just want an honest assessment of a violin’s condition or the quality of its workmanship, but many are hoping for confirmation of their own opinions; this gets tricky because some buyers will “test” luthiers by intentionally showing them instruments that the former don’t actually like to see if the luthiers will identify their reasons, while others have already decided that they like the violins and are just looking for a stamp of approval to feel confident in their decisions. If problems are brought to their attention, buyers may sometimes take umbrage, because they feel like their judgment or intelligence is being called into question. It can be embarrassing for buyers to find out they’ve missed something that a luthier spots in a moment’s glance.

This reminds me of several scenes in the great old movie “The Shop Around the Corner.” The owner of a department store often seeks the opinions of his staff on whether to stock items, and he uses those opinions to assess the competence of the employees. A character named Pirovitch, who provides both comic relief in Groucho Marx style and a healthy dose of down-to-earth sentiment, always makes an immediate escape as soon as he hears the words “I’d just like your honest opinion.” I think luthiers often feel the same terror of those words when they’re uttered.  

[Shunyata]

7 hours ago, The Violin Beautiful said:

as he hears the words “I’d just like your honest opinion.”

Yes, Mr. Matuschek.  Very nice, indeed, Mr. Matuschek.

I love that movie.

[David Burgess]

23 hours ago, martin swan said:

Mostly people seek second opinions because they want to be persuaded not to buy.

Via what means have you come to that conclusion?
I've been thinkin' that people also often seek second opinions to affirm an inclination to buy.
 

[Chamberlain]

I think it would depend on the dollar amount you are looking to spend, how knowledgeable you are about new makers/instruments, and what your motivation and goals are for the instrument. If it’s a “higher” dollar amount and long term investment/ownership, I would lean towards working with a reputable dealer’s shop with multiple new makers represented. 
Even for a lesser amount it might be worth working with a reputable dealer and paying some type of finder fee/ commission for the peace of mind. 
Or you could always just YOLO and buy what you love just like picking a fine luxury car off the lot. 
 

[Wood Butcher]

20 hours ago, The Violin Beautiful said:

A lot of it comes down to professional courtesy and a desire not to come across as insulting toward a colleague. 

It’s a potentially dangerous situation when someone asks for an opinion of the work of a living maker for several reasons. One is that comments tend to be shared, so if a luthier says something that isn’t positive, it may be broadcast to all of the prospective buyer’s friends or the maker. Then there is the issue that comments may be taken out of context. For example, a luthier may praise a number of aspects and point out one detail that is not to his own taste; the buyer is likely to forget the positive feedback and interpret the one criticism as a sign that the luthier hates the violin. Or a comment may simply be misunderstood or misinterpreted.

Another major complication is that the buyer is likely to have a strong emotional response to the comments, even though the instrument hasn’t been purchased. Some buyers just want an honest assessment of a violin’s condition or the quality of its workmanship, but many are hoping for confirmation of their own opinions; this gets tricky because some buyers will “test” luthiers by intentionally showing them instruments that the former don’t actually like to see if the luthiers will identify their reasons, while others have already decided that they like the violins and are just looking for a stamp of approval to feel confident in their decisions. If problems are brought to their attention, buyers may sometimes take umbrage, because they feel like their judgment or intelligence is being called into question. It can be embarrassing for buyers to find out they’ve missed something that a luthier spots in a moment’s glance.

This reminds me of several scenes in the great old movie “The Shop Around the Corner.” The owner of a department store often seeks the opinions of his staff on whether to stock items, and he uses those opinions to assess the competence of the employees. A character named Pirovitch, who provides both comic relief in Groucho Marx style and a healthy dose of down-to-earth sentiment, always makes an immediate escape as soon as he hears the words “I’d just like your honest opinion.” I think luthiers often feel the same terror of those words when they’re uttered.  

Good post!

I would also add, that at anytime seeking an opinion from another maker, dealer, shop, there is always a conflict of interest.
If they know someone is potentially about to spend a significant amount of money, there is a real possibility they would try to steer someone away from a particular maker, instrument, bow etc, in the hope they can sell something of their own instead.

[Andreas Preuss]

I’d rather ask other buyers what they think about their instruments after a few years. 
 

I’d also ask the maker what sort of warranties he/she gives and for how long. Biggest issue could be a dropping neck. 

[David Burgess]

On 12/6/2024 at 3:13 PM, szuper_bojler said:

How do you get honest opinions on living makers?

The outcomes of the better violin making competitions (those with good judges, and in which judges really-truly don't have access to who made an instrument) can offer some pretty solid clues.

I also think that there are some honest dealers who don't trash everything they don't happen to have in their showroom at the moment.

[jacobsaunders]

7 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

 

I also think that there are some honest dealers who don't trash everything they don't happen to have in their showroom at the moment.

I don't think it is a question of "trashing" or even praising a colleague, or even about "honesty". Commenting on a living colleague can have consequenses

[David Burgess]

6 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I don't think it is a question of "trashing" or even praising a colleague, or even about "honesty". Commenting on a living colleague can have consequenses

Yup. In the US at least, one can sue for anything, which can closely resemble nothing. The objective isn't always to have a judge or jury decide the merits of a case, but to compel the other side to spend so much on defense, that they cave in.

[Victor Roman]

On 12/7/2024 at 2:04 AM, martin swan said:

Mostly people seek second opinions because they want to be persuaded not to buy.

And mostly that’s what happens.

Respectfully : what does that really mean ???  When buying a 2nd hand car one should ask for a second opinion save for the case one is a specialist on that specific make model. Just being good at driving is not enough.

[martin swan]

31 minutes ago, Victor Roman said:

Respectfully : what does that really mean ???  When buying a 2nd hand car one should ask for a second opinion save for the case one is a specialist on that specific make model. Just being good at driving is not enough.

It was a humorously rueful remark - meant not to be taken too seriously.

But to be serious, and particularly in the context of newly built instruments. what do people hope to achieve by showing an instrument to a competitor? Many musicians buy contemporary instruments because they wish to avoid the pitfalls of the antique trade, so the deal shouldn't be an issue. If they like the look and they like the maker, surely the only question is whether they like the sound.

Asking other people for opinions on that is often counter-productive, since it's a doomed attempt to objectify a judgment process that should be subjective - unless you're in a quartet of course 

[deans]

I have found that many makers are friends, or at least respecful of one another. Sometimes you have weigh an overly positive opinion.

[BassClef]

Most Luthiers are ok with being strapped to a lie detector test, so just be friendly, show up with the equipment, and ask.

 

[henrypeacham]

What kind of answer should someone expect when asking a Ford salesman about the Chevy equivalent?

[Victor Roman]

On 12/9/2024 at 11:31 AM, martin swan said:

Asking other people for opinions on that is often counter-productive, since it's a doomed attempt to objectify a judgment process that should be subjective - unless you're in a quartet of course 

Quite a profound statement, I must say. I am impressed.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

In reading this thread I've had a reoccurring thought... I understand it may be difficult to put on the neutral hat for many (musicians, teachers, luthiers, dealers), but there are those who do a decent job of it.  Problem is a customer may not be able to tell when they are in the presence of such a person.

BUT: It's my thought is the real problem is the question itself.  It would seem more productive to ask which modern makers work the dealer or luthier recommends trying (makers work they appreciate, makers they've had good long term experience with, etc).  In other words a recommendation rather than a critique.

Takes a good amount of the conflict of interest out of it.  I've never had a problem answering that question.

I also agree with Martin. Even other musicians may have less than honorable reasons to supply a positive or negative opinion (validation, jealousy, etc).

[Davide Sora]

23 minutes ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

In reading this thread I've had a reoccurring thought... I understand it may be difficult to put on the neutral hat for many (musicians, teachers, luthiers, dealers), but there are those who do a decent job of it.  Problem is a customer may not be able to tell when they are in the presence of such a person.

BUT: It's my thought is the real problem is the question itself.  It would seem more productive to ask which modern makers work the dealer or luthier recommends trying (makers work they appreciate, makers they've had good long term experience with, etc).  In other words a recommendation rather than a critique.

Takes a good amount of the conflict of interest out of it.  I've never had a problem answering that question.

This is what I do when people ask me for an opinion. I can't give an opinion on specific instruments because I tend to be too positive to not be offensive to anyone. I can suggest this or that maker based on his honesty and professional ethics, and whether his construction approach is more or less similar or far from mine. Judging the sound is too personal, and the quality of work and finish is too tied to the price that the maker asks. You can't expect high-quality work if the price is low.