Silly Fiddle question

[La Folia]

On 12/3/2024 at 7:39 AM, Rue said:

Violin: formal/official name of the instrument. Generally used by classical music players and by the public at large.

Fiddle: informal name. Used both as a nickname for a violin (by anyone) and by players of fiddle (as a genre) music.

The setup of a violin used for classical music versus "fiddle" music may be different due to the desired playability of the different genres.

Fiddles also include many instruments that are not violins.

[Rue]

Hmm.

Or is a Hardanger simply a variation on a theme, rather than a different animal?

What are the other instruments called fiddles?

[LCF]

6 hours ago, Rue said:

What are the other instruments called fiddles?

Anything which is not a rebec.

These for instance. 

https://images.app.goo.gl/9fNCoPs85SfPamd67

But sometimes a rebec is also called a vielle or viele which is another vile violin word. Hurdy gurdy is Vielle à roue (*) and you do have to fiddle around a lot to play them. 

 

(*) Not Vielle à Rue  :-)

[LCF]

From that pic you can see that Marty K.  is going full circle back to the mediaeval period. 

[La Folia]

11 hours ago, Rue said:

Hmm.

Or is a Hardanger simply a variation on a theme, rather than a different animal?

They used to be quite different until the Helland family started using a violin-like pattern.

[nrlewis]

16 hours ago, La Folia said:

Fiddles also include many instruments that are not violins.

Beautiful! What kind of pearl is that with the pinkish tinge? 

[DeaDizz]

Long time lurker but, as I am a nerd and a crazy person, I've finally made an account to aid in answering this question!

Short answer in this year of our Lord 2024 - fiddler plays fiddle, violinist plays violin

Obnoxious dweeb answer -

     fithele n.

     Forms - fithele n., also viþele, fethele, phet(h)ele, fieþle, fidel, fidle, fedele, fedle

     Etymology - OE fiþele (corresponding to OHG fidula, from LL vitula)

     Definition - 

     A stringed instrument, "the medieval fiddle, popular in the 12th to 15th centuries, played with a bow, in a variety of  tunings with between three and five gut strings, having a monoxyle main body (unlike the later renaissance violin, constructed from parts), made in a variety of shapes (oval, rectangular, figure-eight)" [-- Ian Pittaway, personal communication.]

--

"The use of the word Geige in Germany instead of Fithele in the twelfth century, is worthy of attention as bearing upon Teutonic origin.  The earlist information we have of the use of the Geige in France is in connection with the Jonglueurs.  The Geige was popular in France until the fifteenth century, when, as M. Lacroix says, it disappeared, leaving its name "as the designation of a joyous dance, which for a considerable period was enlivened by the sound of the instrument." The word Geige, I am inclined to think, is important as furnishing evidence of historical value in relation to the ancestry of the Violin." - 'The Violin - Famous Makers and Their Imitators' by G. Hart

--

Clever readers will make the connections to today's "jig".

A "viol" and "fiddle type" instrument are often used interchangeably in what I've studied, and take that second quote with a grain of salt since it is a WILDLY problematic (I do not use that word lightly) British text published in 1909 with all of the predictable colonizer-brained takes of early 20th century Londoners throughout.  

Here's a link if you want to lose a few days - https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/21982/pg21982-images.html

<3

 

 

Edited December 5, 2024 by DeaDizz
grammatical error

[Chamberlain]

You can tell by just looking at it and thinking about what it should sound like.  If you look at it and hear a distant dunananananananana it’s probably a fiddle.  If you look at every violin and hear that… well then Jed here’s your sign and a well deserved beer!

[Ron1]

When an accomplished violinist refers to their instrument as a "fiddle", it is an elitist and egotistical act and an attempt to render themselves more special.  It's not unlike the emperor without clothes- no one will dare question them because they have the 'right' to use the term.  Even more silly (and elitist and egotistical), is when they use the term "axe" when referring to their instruments.

[matesic]

10 hours ago, Ron1 said:

When an accomplished violinist refers to their instrument as a "fiddle", it is an elitist and egotistical act and an attempt to render themselves more special. 

Au contraire, it isn't an affectation (like using French), just a vernacular term that violinists of all abilities often use in conversation with one another.

It's also a rare case of a classical music term that's been adopted as a metaphor in common parlance, viz. to "play second fiddle".

[Dr. Mark]

5 hours ago, matesic said:

It's also a rare case of a classical music term that's been adopted as a metaphor in common parlance, viz. to "play second fiddle".

and 'fiddling around with. ...'

[waldguy]

I know a woman who played professional violin in a local symphony.  A few years ago, her musical preferences changed and she started playing in a bluegrass group.

She was once a violinist, and now she is a fiddler (and very good).  Her instrument was once a violin and now it is a fiddle.  Maybe she changed to steel strings, I don't know.  It's a form of trans I guess.

[martin swan]

15 hours ago, Ron1 said:

When an accomplished violinist refers to their instrument as a "fiddle", it is an elitist and egotistical act and an attempt to render themselves more special.  It's not unlike the emperor without clothes- no one will dare question them because they have the 'right' to use the term.  Even more silly (and elitist and egotistical), is when they use the term "axe" when referring to their instruments.

It’s in very common usage throughout the classical world.

[Rue]

16 hours ago, Ron1 said:

When an accomplished violinist refers to their instrument as a "fiddle", it is an elitist and egotistical act and an attempt to render themselves more special.  It's not unlike the emperor without clothes- no one will dare question them because they have the 'right' to use the term.  Even more silly (and elitist and egotistical), is when they use the term "axe" when referring to their instruments.

These are 'nicknames'.  Not sure how you have come to the conclusion that an accomplished violinist considers themselves 'more' special by using the nickname.

If anything, and I'm stretching here, it would be an attempt to be inclusive..."we're all fiddle players here!".

While I mostly play classical, I tend to spend the summer fiddling.  I call my violin a violin.  Never called it a fiddle, since that's not my main interest, but I do refer to fiddle music...but that's just me...

[La Folia]

On 12/5/2024 at 10:13 AM, nrlewis said:

Beautiful! What kind of pearl is that with the pinkish tinge? 

It would be mother of pearl, but I don't know the source.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

On 12/4/2024 at 6:18 PM, Zeissica said:

The difference is that violins have "strings" and fiddles have "strangs"

 

On 12/4/2024 at 6:48 PM, LCF said:

English is a schizo hybrid language. The difference between fiddle and violin is similar to the difference between will and testament or cow and beef, sheep and mutton or pig and pork. And so on. 

 

Viola, vitula, fiđela, fidla, vihuela, ...

Fiddle players laugh and have fun.  Violin players look like they're going to funerals.

Fiddle players have chaoitic movements.  Orchestra violin players all use exactly the same bow movements and look like precision North Korean army marchers.

[ernym]

23 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

 

Fiddle players laugh and have fun.  Violin players look like they're going to funerals.

Fiddle players have chaoitic movements.  Orchestra violin players all use exactly the same bow movements and look like precision North Korean army marchers.

Like!

[David Burgess]

On 12/5/2024 at 8:04 PM, Ron1 said:

When an accomplished violinist refers to their instrument as a "fiddle", it is an elitist and egotistical act and an attempt to render themselves more special.

Ah, bullchit!

[Dr. Mark]

3 hours ago, La Folia said:

On 12/5/2024 at 11:13 AM, nrlewis said:

Beautiful! What kind of pearl is that with the pinkish tinge? 

It would be mother of pearl, but I don't know the source.

So if it has a blue tinge it's father of pearl?  Is this how oysters are sexed?

 

[LCF]

1 hour ago, Dr. Mark said:

So if it has a blue tinge it's father of pearl?  Is this how oysters are sexed?

 

Oysters are sequential hermaphrodites and the shell produces all the colours of the rainbow varying with the point of view. Very modern.

[Ron1]

On 12/6/2024 at 1:58 AM, matesic said:

Au contraire, it isn't an affectation (like using French), just a vernacular term that violinists of all abilities often use in conversation with one another.

I don't believe that violinists of lesser abilities, ie: students, amateurs, etc, use the term "axe".  

[Don Noon]

6 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Fiddle players laugh and have fun.

Fiddle players have chaoitic movements.

Fiddlers may have fun, but they still suffer from the same problem as violinists:  rapid, complex hand and finger movements use up all of the control bandwidth that also is used for facial muscles.  The difference is that most violinists try to freeze their face into a look of concentration, and fiddlers just go slack-jawed and drool.  Bluegrass banjo players have it even worse.

Low level fiddle players may have chaotic movements, but the higher level ones definitely have very sophisticated, organized movements.  Part of good fiddling is adding in variations in the notes and rhythm, but it isn't chaotic.  For example:  

 

[Dr. Mark]

11 hours ago, Don Noon said:

For example:

Violinist speak:  'Thank you'

Fiddler speak:  'Thank y'all very much'

[ernym]

2 hours ago, Dr. Mark said:

Violinist speak:  'Thank you'

Fiddler speak:  'Thank y'all very much'

Pre colonies fiddler speak: "Go raibh maith agat" 

 "Tapadh leat" 

"Merci Beaucoup"

Many more fiddler speaks...

[ernym]

On 12/8/2024 at 11:49 AM, Marty Kasprzyk said:

 

Fiddle players laugh and have fun.  Violin players look like they're going to funerals.

Fiddle players have chaoitic movements.  Orchestra violin players all use exactly the same bow movements and look like precision North Korean army marchers.

Having family in Weiser Idaho I've attended many fiddle competions there and got to know many of the fiddlers. I can tell you when competing there is serious rivalry but after dark in the camp grounds the fun begins. 

Berklee College of Music

Fiddling is serious, chaoitic and fun at the same time...