Woodland Posted November 30, 2024 Report Posted November 30, 2024 With the proposed trade tariffs on imported goods, I can't help but wonder if the US could be any closer to producing modern factory student violins that could compete in price and quality with modern Chinese violins. With useable hardwoods in relative abundance (i.e. red maple and sycamore, spruce could be another matter) and modern technologies including CNC machines, vacuum kilns and perhaps pantograph duplicators, I would think that could only help to level the playing field at least somewhat. There have only been 2-3 documented violin factories in the history of the US, but apparently Samuel Shen is working toward it: https://www.shenamerica.com. Food for thought.
GeorgeH Posted November 30, 2024 Report Posted November 30, 2024 Where are they going to get the workers?
Northerner Posted November 30, 2024 Report Posted November 30, 2024 1 hour ago, GeorgeH said: Where are they going to get the workers? México?
nathan slobodkin Posted November 30, 2024 Report Posted November 30, 2024 Having worked in one of the few American shops to try to make student level instruments at a compettitive price I don't think it can be done. Even with immigrant labor and basically sweatshop conditions the prices still could not compete at the lower student level. We were mostly competing with the factory made German instruments at the time and were able to make considerably better instruments for not too much more money but as soon as the Soviet Union collapsed the Poles (with Bill Lee's help) and Romanians started making the same quaIity instruments for less. When the Chinese entered the market even the Eastern Europeans had to upgrade the quality and start selling in a higher price class. I am not really familiar with the modern CNC technology and so forth but we did use pantographs and some pretty clever machines for purfling etc. None the less violins unlike guitars really do need considerable hand work and with our minimum wage still at least 10 times the Chinese rates I just can't see how it could be done.
Wood Butcher Posted November 30, 2024 Report Posted November 30, 2024 While I would disagree with the above post that “guitars do not need considerable handwork”, I do agree with the point it would seem impossible to compete. In any developed country, labor laws, safety, ethically/legally sourced materials, taxes, waste management etc, put them at an economic disadvantage. And that is before taking into account subsidies given by foreign governments, either on the products, or shipping, to make their products cheaper in the global marketplace.
The Violin Beautiful Posted November 30, 2024 Report Posted November 30, 2024 Although starting a manufacturing business for inexpensive instruments might not be impossible, there are a number of major hurdles to getting it off the ground. The assembly of a labor force would be the biggest challenge, because there aren’t a lot of violin factory workers available to be pulled in; they would either need to be recruited from countries that have factories already or there would have to be a significant amount of training before production could begin. There are many violin makers in the country already, but their skills are intended for a very different manner of production. A factory needs a workforce of people who have training in very specific tasks, and a good number of them are responsible for things like machine maintenance that aren’t about the construction of violins. There is domestic wood available in the country, and it could be used to lower production costs somewhat, but even so, the costs of cutting the wood and transporting it are not insignificant. Freight costs have risen dramatically and they are hard on all businesses, especially those starting out. A factory would need to invest in some means of varnishing, whether by hand or by sprayer. This is a part of the process where even the existing factories are constantly having to adapt. I don’t think it would be likely that a team of workmen with hand tools could produce enough at a low enough cost to make it possible to compete in a market that’s already flooded with cheap products. Tariffs might make the purchase of more inventory from one country or region too costly to continue, but there are others in the world that are already in production and are better prepared for a sudden increase in demand. As is already the case in a lot of factories, CNC machinery is the most effective means of mass production. If parts can be machined to the point where only a light scraping or (keep in mind this is a factory venture!) sanding will be enough to send them along for assembly, this allows for a workforce that consists mainly of finishing, assembly, and quality control workers in the production department. The machinery, although efficient and effective, does require a significant investment of capital. Then there are the considerations about legal and ethical standards. The success of factories in some areas relies in part on being allowed to make demands of workers that would not be well-received in the United States. If you’re required to provide healthcare benefits and retirement benefits to workers and you hope to attract them with wages that will convince them to do that work instead of work in another manufacturing position, the cost of the labor force adds up very quickly. The safety regulations for factories in the US simply don’t exist in many parts of the world. Then there are other more nefarious things to consider, like bribery of government officials to avoid inspection or the less strict rules regarding workplace accidents or deaths. Assuming all the machinery, a factory building in an area with a low enough cost for rent and living expenses for the staff, the factory administration and staff, the materials for manufacturing, and the means to receive and ship products in significant quantities are all in place, it will be necessary to invest in a marketing and advertising campaign. Word of mouth may be effective enough for shops or individual luthiers, but it won’t be enough to compete with places that are already sending shipping containers full of products over. To top it all off, there are target demographics for these instruments to consider: parents of children buying a first violin who may not have any experience with instruments themselves and who don’t care where one is sourced if the price is low enough, or shops that have rental programs. Shops are going to want rental outfits that are cheap enough to pay for themselves in a rental season and they’re going to want “step-up” violins that are cheap enough that they can make an attractive profit when sold outright and won’t put the shops into difficulty when purchased with rental credit or taken back in trade.
Dr. Mark Posted December 1, 2024 Report Posted December 1, 2024 You're living in the past. This is the age of 3-D custom printing and on-demand feature selection. Where economics prevent the product from meeting demand, price and availability change demand to meet the product. Then we can synergistically incept an expanded array of best practices to reach reinvented price/value standards and ensure client focused market growth. Thank you.
Don Noon Posted December 1, 2024 Report Posted December 1, 2024 13 hours ago, Woodland said: apparently Samuel Shen is working toward it: https://www.shenamerica.com. Presently just words on a web page... with 10 years estimated before actually making instruments entirely in the US. As Nathan mentioned, the cost gap between the US and China is huge, and tariffs would just move the needle a small amount so as to make the imports more expensive, but not enough to make US factories competetive in that market. I wouldn't want to gamble on setting up a factory with the hopes of creating a new market for midrange priced instruments that likely wouldn't be any better than the imports... but still a lot more expensive. And by the time it got into production, the political/tariff environment could change to who-knows-what.
Muswell Posted December 1, 2024 Report Posted December 1, 2024 Who's buying all these violins? The pool of violinists in the area where I play is ageing and there are almost no younger players coming through. One local youth orchestra has effectively become a wind band. For many years now the political environment hasn't supported musical education. Two of our local orchestras give concerts for the schools in the area and this is generally the only exposure that the kids get to "classical" instruments and music.
Woodland Posted December 1, 2024 Author Report Posted December 1, 2024 7 hours ago, Don Noon said: Presently just words on a web page... with 10 years estimated before actually making instruments entirely in the US. As Nathan mentioned, the cost gap between the US and China is huge, and tariffs would just move the needle a small amount so as to make the imports more expensive, but not enough to make US factories competetive in that market. I wouldn't want to gamble on setting up a factory with the hopes of creating a new market for midrange priced instruments that likely wouldn't be any better than the imports... but still a lot more expensive. And by the time it got into production, the political/tariff environment could change to who-knows-what. Perhaps, however they didn't specify which model of instrument(s) they were hoping to produce in the US. Laminate cellos and basses I don't think would be that much of a long shot, as it wouldn't be the first time plywood instruments have been produced in this country. Englehardt only fairly recently (5-6 years maybe?) ceased production and the manufacturing equipment (originally used to produce Kay basses and cellos) was rumored to have been acquired by an east-coast shop. With simplified scrolls and pressed bodies it may be doable, however they'd still be lower-grade plywood instruments, which do serve a purpose.
Brad Dorsey Posted December 1, 2024 Report Posted December 1, 2024 The expense of shipping helps to reduce the cost-of-labor advantage of Chinese basses. This is less of a factor for cellos and much less for violins and violas.
FiddleDoug Posted December 1, 2024 Report Posted December 1, 2024 That will be interesting! The US distributor is right here in Rochester, NY, where I am. I've had occasional contacts with them over the years (my son bought a Shen bass from them). Wonder if they are thinking of making them here?
jacobsaunders Posted December 1, 2024 Report Posted December 1, 2024 In an economy where all utilities (shelter, health, education, energy, waste disposal etc.) are all privatised, and therefore expensive, wages have to be paid so that people have at least a chance to pay for all of these things, as opposed to an economy where such things are provided. For that reason, the Americans will never be able to compete on price, not just with school violins, but with anything
Chamberlain Posted December 1, 2024 Report Posted December 1, 2024 My family runs a successful 5th generation recycled paper mill producing chipboard from recycled trash paper and cardboard (back of notebooks/Starbucks drink holders etc). As previously mentioned a skilled and affordable workforce and the cost of raw materials is and will always be a challenge. Perhaps a factory to refurbish previously made quality instruments and bows into renewed and relevant instruments, that might actually sound beautiful at a reasonable price, would be an option in the future. Sorry it’s the tree hugging, hopeless romantic lover of beautiful sounding and looking wood in me!
Marty Kasprzyk Posted December 1, 2024 Report Posted December 1, 2024 2 hours ago, Woodland said: Perhaps, however they didn't specify which model of instrument(s) they were hoping to produce in the US. Laminate cellos and basses I don't think would be that much of a long shot, as it wouldn't be the first time plywood instruments have been produced in this country. Englehardt only fairly recently (5-6 years maybe?) ceased production and the manufacturing equipment (originally used to produce Kay basses and cellos) was rumored to have been acquired by an east-coast shop. With simplified scrolls and pressed bodies it may be doable, however they'd still be lower-grade plywood instruments, which do serve a purpose. A big adantage of plywood is that it has good strength in all directions so and instrument made from it is much less likely to crack than one made from solid pieces of wood which is weak in its cross grain direction. But it also has nearly equal stiffnesses in different directions unlike wood which has a very low cross grain stiffness. A conventional instrument made with solid woods has its bout width/length ratios producing a set of mode frequencies giving its familar characteristic sound. If exactly the same shape instrument is made from plywood its mode frequencies pattern will be different thus it will sound will be different. As Don offten points out: different isn't desirable. If the same sound character is desirable then it is necessary to adjust the instrument shape if it is made with plywood. Thus the maker has a choice: look the same or sound the same. In the past makers have kept the same shape plywood instruments developed a poor sound quality reputation because of this poor choice.
Don Noon Posted December 1, 2024 Report Posted December 1, 2024 1 hour ago, Marty Kasprzyk said: If the same sound character is desirable then it is necessary to adjust the instrument shape if it is made with plywood. I suspect that the glue and internal shear during vibration of plywood is going to cause higher damping and kill off the higher frequencies no matter what shape you choose. That's what I hear when I play a plywood guitar. It's probably not a big deal for a bass.
M Alpert Posted December 1, 2024 Report Posted December 1, 2024 2 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said: A big adantage of plywood is that it has good strength in all directions so and instrument made from it is much less likely to crack than one made from solid pieces of wood which is weak in its cross grain direction. But it also has nearly equal stiffnesses in different directions unlike wood which has a very low cross grain stiffness. A conventional instrument made with solid woods has its bout width/length ratios producing a set of mode frequencies giving its familar characteristic sound. If exactly the same shape instrument is made from plywood its mode frequencies pattern will be different thus it will sound will be different. I've often wondered - has anyone ever properly experimented with same-directional laminated wood in arched instrument construction? I could imagine that reasonable quality spruce and maple could be pressed and laminated with normal grain orientation, thus saving substantial amounts of wood and arching work, but retaining similar cross- vs. lengthwise stiffness ratios. Also merely the outer veneer could be handsome wood, with inner layers being simply acoustically quality. There you go, my million dollar idea for those willing to put it in action! 1 hour ago, Don Noon said: I suspect that the glue and internal shear during vibration of plywood is going to cause higher damping and kill off the higher frequencies no matter what shape you choose. That's what I hear when I play a plywood guitar. It's probably not a big deal for a bass. Glue weight is probably the biggest resonance killer. But I don't agree about plywood being an essential problem; many very fine guitars are using plywood backs and sides for years, and the top-of-the-line classical guitars are using double-top technology, essentially plywood... With vacuum pressing, CNC shaping and spectrum resonance research to develop plates modeled on classic models, I could imagine promising possibilities, only possible on an industrial scale. Of course personnel, wages etc. are the biggest challenges.
David Burgess Posted December 1, 2024 Report Posted December 1, 2024 3 hours ago, jacobsaunders said: In an economy where all utilities (shelter, health, education, energy, waste disposal etc.) are all privatised, and therefore expensive, wages have to be paid so that people have at least a chance to pay for all of these things, as opposed to an economy where such things are provided. In an economy where these things are provided, do the people who provide these things want to be paid, or do they happily work for nothing?
jacobsaunders Posted December 1, 2024 Report Posted December 1, 2024 17 minutes ago, David Burgess said: In an economy where these things are provided, do the people who provide these things want to be paid, or do they happily work for nothing? If you work somewhere where your rent is 60% of your income, and healthcare a further 40%, you are already working for nothing
Wood Butcher Posted December 1, 2024 Report Posted December 1, 2024 At least the chemical food additives are included free
M Alpert Posted December 1, 2024 Report Posted December 1, 2024 "Tariff is the most beautiful word in the English language " Certainly will be interesting to see what happens
David Burgess Posted December 1, 2024 Report Posted December 1, 2024 3 hours ago, jacobsaunders said: If you work somewhere where your rent is 60% of your income, and healthcare a further 40%, you are already working for nothing Wouldn't you be working for housing and healthcare, rather than for nothing? Is there ever a little left over for food and clothing? How many nations have most of their people running around naked?
LCF Posted December 1, 2024 Report Posted December 1, 2024 Anything made in America nowadays must mostly be for local consumption whether or not higher tarrifs get to be imposed on imports since the cost of export freight from the US to anywhere else in the world is ridiculously high. This is like a reverse tarrif!
Marty Kasprzyk Posted December 1, 2024 Report Posted December 1, 2024 3 hours ago, M Alpert said: I've often wondered - has anyone ever properly experimented with same-directional laminated wood in arched instrument construction? I could imagine that reasonable quality spruce and maple could be pressed and laminated with normal grain orientation, thus saving substantial amounts of wood and arching work, but retaining similar cross- vs. lengthwise stiffness ratios. Also merely the outer veneer could be handsome wood, with inner layers being simply acoustically quality. There you go, my million dollar idea for those willing to put it in action! Glue weight is probably the biggest resonance killer. But I don't agree about plywood being an essential problem; many very fine guitars are using plywood backs and sides for years, and the top-of-the-line classical guitars are using double-top technology, essentially plywood... With vacuum pressing, CNC shaping and spectrum resonance research to develop plates modeled on classic models, I could imagine promising possibilities, only possible on an industrial scale. Of course personnel, wages etc. are the biggest challenges. Many years ago I made several violas with two layers of 1mm thick laminated spruce veneer for the top and two layers of curly maple veneer for the back. The veneer wood cost was trivial compared to solid instrument billets. The plates were vacuum pressed to shape with phenol formaldehyde glue between the two layers. The two spruce top layer's grain lines were not quite parallel with a slight angle (~ 5 degrees) to make crack propagation more unlikely while still maintaining the high longitudinal and low cross grain stiffnesses. The ribs were a single layer of maple veneer. Now I make the top, back, and rib with one layer of 3 play birch plywood.
Marty Kasprzyk Posted December 2, 2024 Report Posted December 2, 2024 21 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said: > Now I make the top, back, and rib with one layer of 3 play birch plywood. After choosing the traditional wood and top plate arch height and shape the only thing you have left you can adjust in its construction is the plate's thickness profile. If you make a violin or viola top plate thin enough to get a good low frequency response then the high frequency end is undesriably reduced ("tubby" or "muted"). Conversely if the top is thick the high end will be strong but the bottom end is weak ("harsh"). So it is necessary to find a compromise thickness that balances just enough low end with just enough high end. But if you use a thin flat plywood plate you can vary its bracing pattern to get both strong high and low end responses at the same time. Attached is a photo of my last viola (No. 47) top plate bracing and also attached is its frequency response curve which shows a strong low end output with an A0 frequency of only 147Hz which gives deep sounding notes on its C string. There is also a broad and high "bridge hill" around 3kHz which helps all notes. This No. 47 viola is really small: violin size with a body length of only 14 in. yet is sounds like a much larger violas. This smaller size and weight should reduce the likelihood of repetitive stress injuries for professional viola players. A small size viola should also be helpful for young people who a stuck playing terrible sounding student violas made with thick tops. This viola size reduction suggests that maybe fractional size violins can also be made to sound like full size ones. I'm currently making a 3/4 size violin (335mm) with a similar 0.8mm thick birch plywood top. But it is much stiffer with more cross bracing (attached photo,No. 48 violin) in an attempt to get a higher A0 frequency around 270 - 280Hz that full size good violins typically have. If that is successful I'll try making even smaller 1/2, 1/4... size violins for young students.
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