Copyist

[Potter]

Could Y'all enlighten me on the definition of a copyist as opposed to others making Strad and such forms? Parent shopping- daughter trialling a violin from a very legit dealer, Germany 1920s. Individual maker. Just wanted to understand the lingo. And there was some innuendo that some of these copies at that time and place by this maker might have entered the market as forgeries.... 

Don't want to go into too much detail beyond that as it is not our violin.....yet. 

[Don Noon]

I doubt that there is an official, precise definition of what a "copyist" is, but my impression is that such a person would generally work to create an instrument that at least visually looks like something made by someone else.  There would be various versions of that, though...

Normally, I think a copyist would work with a valuable antique as a goal, either a specific instrument or a more widely used Strad model, and put effort into antiquing the varnish and appearance to look like the genuine article.  At the extreme, every ding and scratch of a specific instrument might be copied, although duplicating the exact thickness graduations might be less common.

A copyist could also duplcate instruments from more modern makers.  This might get into the realm of forgeries if there is any attempt to pass them off as originals.  This is distinct from just printing up fake labels and gluing them into random things.

Most makers I know work with traditional models, sometimes antiquing them to look older, sometimes not.  I wouldn't call them copyists when they do that.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

I would imagine that sometimes the lines are blurred, but:

A forger makes an object with plans to pass it as an original.  A copyist, in my opinion, would be someone who copys an object as closely as possible, but leaves an indication/mark/label somewhere on the object to show who actually made it and/or it's not an original (and does not plan to pass it as original). Many makers mark replacement parts (like a copy of a frog) with their own symbol or stamp. A number of players I know of have engaged contemporary makers to make a copy of their old classic instrument and/or bow...

What happens down the road isn't under the control of the maker and may be defined by the ethics of future "others".  

 

[Potter]

Thanks. In the end it will be evaluated as tool by her the player and her teachers.

But as a parent, non-player, knowing a bit about it is interesting.

 

[GeorgeH]

7 hours ago, Potter said:

Parent shopping- daughter trialling a violin from a very legit dealer, Germany 1920s. Individual maker.

Many (probably most) "individual makers" from Germany during that period were putting their names and labels in better "cottage industry" violins. Many of these instruments were very nice, but were not individually bench-made by the maker on the label as copies of any particular violin. 

It is better to refer to these "cottage industry"  instruments as "models" rather than "copies." The popular Stradiuarius, Guarnerius, Amati, and Stainer models are not copies of these particular makers, but rather built on idealized and standardized German workshop patterns.

[Potter]

This is a Berlin maker, known for his exacting copies. So not the usual. 

[Guido]

On 11/30/2024 at 6:36 AM, Potter said:

This is a Berlin maker, known for his exacting copies. So not the usual. 

Yes, some of his violins have allegedly lived a part of their live as the original. Being such a good and versatile copyist, however, it can be difficult to be sure a violin is actually by him. Forgeries of this copyist are common. I'd want a bulletproof certificate or two.